Official Languages Committee on June 1st, 2021

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Essentially, the Government of Canada gives about $253 million over three years directly to the Government of Ontario. That is by far the largest of all the envelopes. For the sake of comparison, the federal government's envelope for the Government of New Brunswick, which is next in terms of amount, is $90 million. There is a huge difference between the two.

It is really the Government of Ontario that then decides how to distribute the money. Another area where we could provide support is in terms of infrastructure projects. For instance, the Government of Ontario can inform the federal government that it wants to give money to the University of Sudbury, and then ask it whether it also wants to participate in the funding. That is what we did by giving about $1.5 million to Laurentian University for the renovation and use of the Alphonse Raymond building. The province also contributed $1.5 million to the project.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

My colleague Mr. Blaney also talked about another fact that is not well-known.

Why doesn't the federal government give the money directly to Laurentian University, to the University of Sudbury and to community groups with a plan?

Can the federal government directly fund post-secondary education institutions such as Laurentian University or the University of Sudbury or any other university in the country?

How is the money transferred?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

There is a reason for the federal department's lack of involvement in education: in the Constitution, education is a provincial responsibility. The only jurisdiction the federal government can use to get involved is its jurisdiction over official languages. It is actually enshrined in the Constitution that language rights are protected by the federal government.

So, thanks to its investment power, the federal government can decide to invest money to protect language rights and support the vitality of francophones in northern Ontario.

Therefore, strong institutions funded by the federal government must be created, such as post-secondary education institutions. However, the government can only do that through the provinces.

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I would like you to confirm something for me, as this is a very important issue.

Had Laurentian University contacted your office directly saying that it needed financial assistance and asked you to lend it money, how would you have reacted?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

We would have told the university that we would call the Government of Ontario to find a solution.

That is exactly what we did with the Université de l'Ontario français. We can apply political pressure to push the Government of Ontario to respect our vision for language rights, which we must defend in the current circumstances

[Paul Lefebvre, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lefebvre.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

I announce that Mr. Beaulieu will have the floor for the next six minutes.

Mr. Beaulieu, we are listening.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, minister.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I would like to consider the issue from a global perspective. Are you familiar with the principle of institutional completeness?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Yes, I have an idea of what you mean.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

This is not a trick question.

According to sociologist Raymond Breton, the more developed a language community's network of institutions is, the less likely the community is to be assimilated and the stronger its vitality is.

According to Frederick Lacroix, a Quebec author and researcher, francophones make up 80% of Quebec's population and, to ensure the future of French, we must be able to integrate newcomers, to include them. I think that about 90% of funding for institutions in Quebec such as post-secondary institutions should go to francophone institutions. Therefore, the principle of institutional completeness also applies to this situation. The principle has also been invoked to keep Montfort Hospital and for situations outside Quebec.

I don't know whether you can explain this to me: in Quebec, the Quebec government allocates about 30% of its budget to anglophone post-secondary institutions, while anglophones account for just over 8% of the population. However, in Ontario, those whose mother tongue is French account for about 4.7% of the population, and they receive 3% of the provincial budget. They are already disadvantaged by the provincial funding.

In Quebec, the portion of the federal budget that is allocated to anglophone universities is growing. Mr. Blackwell calculated that, from 2000 to 2017, 38.4% of federal funding, or $363 million, was allocated annually to anglophone universities. This means that francophone universities are receiving only 61.6% of the funding.

How would you explain this? Outside Quebec, it is sort of the opposite situation, and francophone post-secondary institutions are underfunded. Do you think that is fair?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Beaulieu.

I don't know where Mr. Lacroix is getting his numbers, but they certainly do not come from official languages programs. Université Laval and Bishop's University are the only two universities in Quebec that have received money from us, and Université Laval is not even an anglophone institution.

That money is allocated to those universities because the Government of Quebec gives them priority. The Quebec government presents various projects to support the community, and the Government of Canada does not impose priorities on it.

As for the rest, I would tell you that, as a Montrealer, I am very proud of our universities. They make Montreal an extraordinary city with researchers who are among the best in the world and university hospital centres that help us have access to the best health care in both official languages. In short, I am very proud of the work done at our Quebec universities.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Do you think the funding for francophone institutions should be proportional to the demographic weight of francophones?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Those are two different things.

When it comes to university funding, research chairs come into play. But they don't come under us, at official languages, but rather under another department. I am talking to you about post-secondary education assistance for official language minority communities, as well as projects supporting the university sector in Quebec.

We should certainly provide francophone minority communities with even more assistance because we know there is a risk of assimilation and we recognize that French in the country has been declining. That is why we recognized, in the Speech from the Throne, that French was a minority language and that we must do more to protect it. That is why we will introduce a bill on this issue, and why we want to strengthen—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I don't mean to interrupt you, but I see that I don't have much time left.

We definitely agree on that. We want francophone and Acadian communities to have sufficient funding to develop and counter the very worrisome assimilation rate, which has been growing with every census. We also want the decline of French in Quebec to be countered, because, if French were to decline in Quebec, it would decline even more everywhere else.

What do you think about the fact that, when it comes to the reform of the Official Languages Act, the Government of Quebec is saying that positive measures should always be implemented by consulting Quebec and with its consent?

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Minister, please answer within 10 seconds.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

It will be my pleasure to continue the conversation on this with the Government of Quebec. I had an opportunity to talk to the minister of education, the minister in charge of Canadian relations, the minister of justice and the Quebec premier's cabinet. The conversations are ongoing, and I think we will definitely reach a good agreement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Emmanuel Dubourg]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Boulerice, go ahead for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you very much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

My first question is about Laurentian University. The university needs about $100 million. You are announcing today unilateral assistance, if I have understood correctly, of about $5 million. That falls far short of the mark.

How can the university be saved by meeting only 5% of its needs?

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

Laurentian University certainly must continue its process. I find that process appalling, as it is not normal for a university, a public institution, to end up having to use the Companies' Creditors Arrangement Act. That makes no sense, as the biggest creditor is the provincial government. It makes no sense to decide to give up on a university.

This is not the first time that has happened, as you know. You are a member from Quebec, as am I. In our beautiful city of Montreal, the infamous Îlot Voyageur project nearly bankrupted the Université du Québec à Montréal, UQAM. At the time, the Government of Quebec decided to cover the cost instead of ensuring that UQAM would end up in court.

Of course, $5 million is a start. It goes without saying that the money is meant to help the community get organized.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Okay. So we agree that it is a start, that more must be done and that things must be taken further. You have started to take action for Laurentian University, and so much the better. You did the same for the Université de l'Ontario français.

What about Campus Saint-Jean, in Edmonton? Where does your government stand on that issue?

What is happening over there is extremely worrisome. There is a real risk of losing French programs that cannot be replaced. There is actually nothing else.

[Mélanie Joly, Liberal, Ahuntsic-Cartierville, QC]

That is still shocking, as the Government of Alberta decided to fight in court instead of providing its portion of the funding. We have allocated $3.7 million for Campus Saint-Jean, and that money has remained on the table. It will be my pleasure to continue to find solutions for Campus Saint-Jean and to pressure the Government of Alberta, but I am still appalled that the Franco-Albertan community must fight in court, spend money and use the court challenges program to defend its language rights.

In the meantime, the Government of Alberta would rather pay legal fees to challenge Franco-Albertans' language rights.

So much for resource allocation, right?

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Yes, so much for that. That said, I also know of a federal government that is challenging the rights of residential school survivors. We could talk about that. You are paying lawyers a lot of money to challenge indigenous rights.

Concerning Campus Saint-Jean, are you telling me you will wait for the provincial government to take action before you do your share to defend and save Campus Saint-Jean?