Evidence of meeting #38 for Official Languages in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was federal.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Dean and Executive Chief Officer, Campus Saint-Jean, University of Alberta
Absolutely. I won't repeat Mr. Prud'homme's exact words, but as far as we are concerned, I agree with what he said. Regular, permanent, indexed funding that truly takes local circumstances into account, is what's needed.
NDP
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you very much, Mr. Boulerice.
That's all the time we have to ask the witnesses questions.
On behalf of the committee members, I'd like to thank the witnesses for their contributions to this study. I'd like to remind everyone that we had with us today Mr. Denis Prud'homme, Rector and Vice-Chancellor of Université de Moncton, and Mr. Pierre-Yves Mocquais, Dean and Chief Executive Officer of Campus Saint-Jean at the University of Alberta.
Thank you, gentlemen. I look forward to meeting you in person again.
Dean and Executive Chief Officer, Campus Saint-Jean, University of Alberta
Thank you very much.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
We're going to suspend the meeting to give the next guests the time to join us virtually.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
The meeting is resumed.
I'm going to repeat the instructions for the witnesses who have just joined us.
Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(f), the committee is meeting on the study of the federal support for French-language or bilingual post-secondary institutions in a minority situation.
Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting.
A reminder that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the Chair. Should any technical challenges arise, please advise the Chair so that we can deal with them quickly.
The last thing I would like to remind all participants and attendees of is that you cannot take photos or screen captures.
We would now like to welcome the witnesses for this second hour of our meeting.
We have Ms. Anne Vinet-Roy, President of the Association des enseignantes et des enseignants franco-ontariens. We also have two representatives from Université de l'Ontario français, Ms. Dyane Adam, Chair, Board of Governors, and Mr. Denis Berthiaume, Vice-President Academic and Research.
You have five minutes each for your statement. I will tell you when you have a minute left, and when your speaking time is over.
Let's begin without further ado.
Ms. Vinet-Roy, you have five minutes for your statement.
Anne Vinet-Roy President, Association des enseignantes et des enseignants franco-ontariens
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'd like to begin by thanking you for having invited the Association des enseignantes et des enseignants franco-ontariens to take part in this study.
I am here today as the president of the AEFO, a francophone union that has approximately 12,000 members and that represents Ontario elementary and high school teachers in both Catholic and public high schools, in addition to professional and support staff at various francophone workplaces.
The AEFO is interested in French-language post-secondary education in Ontario from two different standpoints.
Firstly, as a stakeholder in francophone Ontario, the AEFO strongly believes that francophone post-secondary educational institutions are essential to provide an education continuum that will enable our students to be educated entirely in French right up until they enter the labour market.
In addition to promoting equitable program offerings in French, the French-language minority post-secondary environment would do well to operate on the principle of management by and for francophones. This would make them the linchpins of governance for their educational institutions. It's essential not only to make sure that these educational institutions are accessible, but also that they support the creation of knowledge within minority language communities by focusing on research.
Then, as a key player in the Franco-Ontarian school system, the AEFO wants sound post-secondary education programs for the training of a skilled workforce, particularly among its members. Undergraduate programs provide students for faculties of education and enable future teachers of mathematics, science, history, French, and other subjects to acquire the required core knowledge. If programs like these are abandoned, there will eventually be serious repercussions on our schools.
The AEFO and the school board associations worked together in the fall of 2020 to develop an overview of qualified teacher shortages in our French-language schools and to find solutions to the problem. One thing is clear, and that is that the shortages stem in large part from decisions on the structure of programs, and the number of places available, in faculties of education. French-language schools in Ontario need approximately 940 new teachers per year, whereas the faculties of education are graduating an average of only 480, because of the limited funding they are receiving.
French-language faculties of education that do not receive special funding to offset the smaller numbers and the resulting higher costs, have had to stop offering certain programs, leading to school boards no longer having access to qualified teachers in certain fields.
Based on the analyses produced by the group in connection with its work last fall, the estimates show that if no action is taken, more than 2,500 unqualified people will be assigned teaching tasks in Franco-Ontarian schools by 2025, and will account for nearly one-quarter of total staff. When that happens, it will no longer be possible to speak about equivalent program availability in the minority language, as guaranteed by section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.
In February 2021, the working group I just mentioned presented a report to the Minister of Education that contained 37 recommendations, some of which were directly relevant to program funding.
Among other things, it recommended funding for the measures required to ensure the annual availability of an additional 520 certified teachers. This could involve adding places in faculties of education with teacher education programs in French.
It further recommends targeted funding for faculties of education for a teacher education program in French so that they can develop programs in several sections for all levels, as well as technology training, and that these programs be available virtually in all parts of the province, with due regard to the realities of the Franco-Ontarian education context.
It also recommends targeted funding to ensure course offerings in all intermediate and senior level methodology subjects, in technology education, and for small class courses.
The final recommendation is for funding to provide incentives for people who need to, or who are willing to, complete their teacher training in remote areas.
The working group partners are still impatiently waiting for a response to the report from the Ontario government. We hope that the proposals will be acted upon and the necessary funding provided.
To conclude, French-language education, from early childhood to post-secondary, is essential to the survival of francophone minority communities because it contributes to their preservation and development.
Thank you very much for your time.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you very much Ms. Vinet-Roy.
We'll now move on to Ms. Dyane Adam, the Chair of the Université de l'Ontario français Board of Governors.
You have five minutes, Ms. Adam.
Dyane Adam Chair, Board of Governors, Université de l'Ontario français
I'd like to thank you, Mr. Chair, the co‑chairs and other members of the committee for having invited us today to contribute to your work on federal support for minority French-language post-secondary educational institutions.
As the time allowed for the opening address is five minutes, I will go straight to the crux of the matter. You won't be surprised to hear that I'll be focusing on funding. It will no doubt resemble what you may have heard already from some of my colleagues at other universities. I can assure you, however, that we did not consult one another.
To begin with, I'd like to underscore the key and essential role played by the federal government over the past few years, through the Minister of Official Languages, in the establishment of the first autonomous French-language university in Ontario. The joint funding agreement between Ontario and the federal government to get the project off the ground is what really got things moving for the Université de l'Ontario français, the UOF. The federal government will provide its share of the funding for the first four years and the province will contribute an equivalent amount for the four subsequent years.
The UOF Is not the first minority language post-secondary institution in Ontario or elsewhere in Canada to receive significant one-time support from the federal government. This also occurred when the French-language colleges and boards were established in Ontario. This kind of financial support, while significant, is based on a strategy of providing ad hoc project funding. In fact, under the federal official languages program, most of the contribution agreements between the provincial and federal governments for the post-secondary sector, call for investments by both for a limited period of time.
Over the longer term, however, in order to make sure that francophone minority community universities or colleges are sustainable, this kind of funding is limited or even inadequate. The federal government needs to broaden its field of action and commit itself to providing stable and recurring operational funding to such institutions.
Of course, minority community post-secondary educational institutions are, in each of their respective provinces, part of a larger ecosystem whose financial base is established as a function of the majority language population. Overall, it is a funding logic based essentially on numbers: number of students, number of programs and size of the institution. Economies of scale in the large institutions of the majority help to maintain acceptable levels of stability and funding for these universities and colleges in Canada. However, for francophone minority communities, the undifferentiated application of this kind of funding formula for their institutions condemns them to instability and financial vulnerability.
We mustn't forget that these institutions, which serve a small population base, nevertheless must offer a sufficiently broad range of programs to meet the various workforce needs of their community and society. By diversifying its programs, these universities will have to offer programs in which fewer students generate less revenue. In such situations, core funding cannot be calculated in the same manner as it is for English-language universities. Separate support funds are required to allow them to fulfil their specific and unique mandates.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Ms. Adam, could you raise your microphone a little higher please? There's a bit of noise that's making it hard for our interpreters to understand what you're saying.
Liberal
Chair, Board of Governors, Université de l'Ontario français
I'm going to talk specifically about Ontario.
For decades, the province has, in its University funding formula, recognized the additional costs tied to services and programs in the minority language. This takes the form of a special funding envelope for bilingualism and French-language education.
Although this special form of funding has not grown substantially for several years, the province nevertheless hands out a total of approximately $87 million per year to francophone minority post-secondary systems to enhance core funding for these institutions. The federal contribution to this core funding is currently approximately $14 million, which represents only 16% of the funds.
We are therefore a long way from a situation in which there is an equal contribution from the two levels of government. The fact is that an additional $29 million per year should be provided by the federal government to match current investment by the province, in recognition of this additional funding cost for francophone minority universities.
I'll conclude by saying that I have come to the same conclusion as Rector Prud'homme. The federal government really needs to develop an ongoing separate program to provide financial support to francophone minority post-secondary educational institutions. The program requires two components, the current one, which provide startup funds or one-time funding, and a new component that would provide genuine permanent core funding for the institutions.
Thank you for listening.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
Thank you very much for finishing on time.
Mr. Blaney now, for the next six minutes.
One moment please, because the clerk wants to say something.
The Clerk
Mr. Chair, the interpreters are still having trouble hearing Ms. Adam.
Could you suspend the meeting for a moment so that we can do another sound test?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Emmanuel Dubourg
We are resuming the meeting.
We have reached the point at which committee members can ask the witnesses questions. The first is Mr. Blaney.
Mr. Blaney, you have the floor for six minutes.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I''d like to make the best possible use of my time. I'll begin with Ms. Adam and then move on to Ms. Vinet-Roy.
Ms. Adam, I'll begin by congratulating you.The Université de l'Ontario français has finally become a reality. When you last appeared before our committee, or at least at one of your recent appearances, we were at a critical phase and you emphasized the importance of this university. We are delighted about the outcome, and about the fact that the solution for the funding was worked out by the Standing Committee on Official Languages.
We're talking about money, of course, which is crucial. You and Mr. Prud'homme both mentioned that stable permanent federal funding was required rather than one-time funding.
I also heard you mention startup and permanent funding. There are also infrastructures, which are important to universities, particularly for a new institution. I'd like to hear from you on that score.
How do you see this permanent contribution by the federal government, particularly as it relates to the Université de l'Ontario français?
Chair, Board of Governors, Université de l'Ontario français
The Université de l'Ontario français Now has startup funding spread over an eight-year period. Surprisingly, we are already in the third year. We have therefore nearly reached the second stage of the funding process.
For the startup funding, infrastructure funds remain one-time. However, it might be possible to decide during the second phase to allocate part of the permanent ongoing funding to infrastructure maintenance. That, in fact, is one of the major problems. I think that the startup funding should remain, because we have time-limited projects, and that the other funding phase should also begin.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
We understand that the provinces fund their universities, but do you feel the federal government has a role to play in stable and ongoing funding for post-secondary educational institutions?
And do you believe that an asymmetrical approach should be adopted for francophone universities outside Quebec, in comparison to anglophone universities in Quebec, which are perhaps in a different reality?
I don't know whether you really want to get into that.
Chair, Board of Governors, Université de l'Ontario français
I'll put on my former Commissioner of Official Languages hat. I've always preferred to think that the local context needs to be factored in. I believe a witness mentioned that earlier. What I can say is that there are anglophone communities in Quebec that do not have the same level of services as Montreal's anglophone community. Similarly, the situation is not the same everywhere for francophone communities outside Quebec.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
So the principles are the same, but the approach needs to be tailored to the realities of the communities. Thank you.
Ms. Vinet-Roy, my first question is very straightforward. You only represent teachers at francophone schools. What about the French teachers who teach in French immersion schools. Are they part of your organization?
President, Association des enseignantes et des enseignants franco-ontariens
No, they are not part of our organization.
In Ontario, we have four teachers' unions. We, as we said, represent teachers in French-language elementary and secondary schools in Ontario, both Catholic and public. There are French immersion teachers from elementary and secondary schools who are represented by the Catholic schools' union. As for the anglophone public system, there are two distinct unions, one for the high schools and another for the elementary schools.
Conservative
Steven Blaney Conservative Bellechasse—Les Etchemins—Lévis, QC
You represent 12,000 members, which is a lot.
You said that a significant shortage is expected in education. You're asking for steps to be taken to ensure that there will be an additional 520 certified teachers every year. Otherwise, by 2025, one-quarter of teachers will not be certified.
Can the federal government play a role in ensuring that there will be enough new certified teachers every year?
You also mentioned a constitutional obligation. Did you consider that the federal government has a legal and moral obligation to provide more financial support for the education of these teachers, if it is to fulfil its constitutional obligations? Does that reflect your thinking on this?
