Official Languages Committee on May 27th, 2024

[Raymond Théberge]

I'm referring to the public service, and I don't think your colleague is part of it.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

However, you're talking about ethics and values, and I think they apply to us as well as members of Parliament, but that's fine.

Commissioner, I'd like to get another piece of information from you. You are granted new powers under Bill C-13. You said that you didn't have a crystal ball, that we unfortunately had lost a year and that you didn't even know when the government would issue its order to provide you with the necessary tools.

You also mentioned federally regulated businesses. That's another order that will apply to those businesses in Quebec, once it has been made and approved two years after the fact.

Don't you think it's taking a lot of time?

Doesn't this government's attitude reveal a lack of will?

[Raymond Théberge]

We realize that it's taking its time developing regulations. The situation is urgent, in my view. It should be proceeding as quickly as possible. Last year, they were talking about a three-year timeline. Now they're talking about an 18-month timeline. When will it be done? We need tools in order to do our job. We have some tools now, but not the ones we need to exercise our new powers, in particular to impose administrative monetary penalties on federally regulated businesses.

Consequently, despite all its good intentions, the clock is ticking. 2025 is fast approaching and we don't want to miss—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

We don't want to miss the boat. We need to act now. We all agree that French is in an exponentially accelerating decline.

You said in response to a question that you had prepared a road map for federal institutions. Is that your role or that of the Office of the President of the Treasury Board or the Department of Canadian Heritage? There's some confusion.

I believe you have all the good will in the world, Commissioner, but it isn't your role. I think it's the role of the Office of the President of the Treasury Board. There unfortunately seem to be some confusing grey areas between the two departments.

Do you think that's normal?

[Raymond Théberge]

I believe this road map was developed because something was missing. The idea was to provide federal institutions with guidance as soon as possible while awaiting the part VII regulations. I think our role is to be proactive. When I work with federal institutions, I often say that it's like being a supply teacher. That's not why we're there, but all too often we have to take action in the meantime. I can't just wait without doing something.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I agree with you, Commissioner. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner.

Thank you, Mr. Godin. You've gone well past your speaking time.

Mr. Serré, please go ahead for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Commissioner, for being here today. Thank you also for the work you do on an everyday basis.

You said earlier that all the regulations would likely be adopted within 18 months.

I'd like you to explain to the committee members and to Canadians what additional powers you now have since the adoption of Bill C-13.

Some of your new powers, such as monetary penalties, have not yet come into force, but others have. Can you tell us about that?

[Raymond Théberge]

As I mentioned earlier when I was speaking about the new investigative process, which I compared to a highway, I now have the power to publish an investigation summary following its conclusion.

I have the power to sign compliance agreements with federal institutions. In practice, a compliance agreement is a contract. I also have the power to issue orders to require the fulfilment of compliance agreements or recommendations.

There are also now more grounds available to me to refuse to investigate certain complaints, such as those deemed to be trivial.

I can also use alternative dispute resolution methods. We opted for mediation, which we will begin using over the next few months.

So those are new tools now available to me. I believe they are helpful, because they provide the commissioner's office with more teeth than before. However, the more rapidly additional tools can make their way into my tool box, the better it will be. Enormous challenges remain in certain areas, such as those faced by the travelling public in the transportation sector. And monetary penalties will be applicable to that sector.

Within four to six months, most of the new powers granted to me will be in force, but there are limitations.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you very much.

You also spoke earlier about a shortcoming with respect to indicators for official language minority communities in terms of assessing the effectiveness and implementation of the act in 10 years.

Do you have any recommendations for the committee about the indicators required to ensure that we have useful data within 10 years?

[Raymond Théberge]

I think it has to be based on part VII of the Official Languages Act.

Part VII identifies important factors. One such factor is the education continuum. We know that the quality of an educational system is a contributing factor to linguistic vitality. It's also affected by immigration policy, which has a demographic and linguistic impact. Then there's the matter of the number of eligible children.

So some important factors are mentioned in part VII, and they should be the basis for reviewing the impact of part VII on official language minority communities. This would determine whether the positive measures introduced have had an impact on the development of these communities, as required under the act.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

You said that it was preferable for the periodic review of the act's provisions and application to be every 10 years, and that a five-year period would not be long enough.

You also said you had recommended that indicators should be developed to ensure that the periodic review is done properly. Based on your own experience or on what you've heard from researchers, what should these indicators be?

[Raymond Théberge]

These indicators include the state of the early childhood to post-secondary education system, the demographic evolution of communities, the impact of immigration on these communities, the impact of federal institutions on the communities, the place of culture in the communities, and the extent to which support is provided for the cultural industry in our communities.

It would be easy for us to set up a group of researchers who could quickly put together a whole list of indicators. The important thing is to develop lists that include key indicators—not hundreds of indicators. Part VII of the act lists a number of indicators.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

In response to a question from Ms. Ashton, you mentioned the importance of the court challenges program, which Bill C-316 would maintain. Based on the challenges that were raised throughout Ontario, it became clear that this program was important in education, just as the Montfort Hospital case demonstrated that it was important in health, and also in justice, as shown in Manitoba.

The Conservatives previously cut this program twice. And recently, the Standing Committee on Canadian Heritage welcomed a witness who had been Mr. Harper's chief of staff, who once again recommended cutting this program.

What impact would cancelling this program for a third time have on our official language minority communities?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We've gone well beyond the allotted time. That's why, in the next round of questions, I'm going to give the Bloc Québécois and the NDP an additional 30 seconds each.

Thank you for the question. The Commissioner will be able to answer it later as we continue the discussion.

We're beginning another round of five minutes.

Go ahead, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, you deserve a lot of credit for having taken the initiative to provide a road map. However, I believe it's now up to Treasury Board to do its work and require that each of the institutions that makes use of this road map to achieve results. I think we've reached the point at which the government needs to be forced to take the steps required to achieve the desired results.

How do we sort things out now? In your recommendation 1, you tell the Minister of Canadian Heritage, with the support of the President of the Treasury Board, to develop and publish indicators by 2026.

So there are two heads, in addition to the Minister of Official Languages, because the Minister of Canadian Heritage is supposedly not linked to the Official Languages Act. She delegated her powers. You then recommend to the latter, who has delegated her powers to the Minister of Official Languages, to work together with the President of the Treasury Board.

Doesn't that looks a bit like the tower of Babel?

[Raymond Théberge]

I don't know whether it looks like the tower of Babel, but there are always different parties involved in governance.

The new Official Languages Act assigns Treasury Board a much larger role than it had in the past. What's different pertains to part VII of the act because, as I said earlier, of the Canadian Heritage and Official Languages departments' experience with the communities.

When I say “in collaboration”, the implication is that someone is responsible.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Who might that be?

[Raymond Théberge]

My view is that it's Treasury Board.

In the new Official Languages Act, much is made about the importance of the Treasury Board's governance and role. It's a central agency, whereas the Department of Canadian Heritage is not. This department still has a role to play then, because of its relationships and experience with communities. However, clear directives are required, and these, I believe, must come from Treasury Board.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I fully share your opinion on that. The Department of Canadian Heritage can contribute to the exercise, of course, but a conductor is needed to orchestrate the entire act, and it should be Treasury Board. Because the Liberals did not agree with the amendment introduced to this effect, power has once again been divided. It was their decision.

I' m going to ask you a question that I've asked you before.

When discussing the Treasury Board Secretariat and the Department of Canadian Heritage, should the Minister of Canadian Heritage appear before the Official Languages Committee?

[Raymond Théberge]

It depends on the subject being discussed.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Do you think the Standing Committee on Official Languages might deal with matters of some interest to the Minister of Canadian Heritage?

[Raymond Théberge]

I believe that the committee is free to invite—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I'm not talking about what the committee can do, Commissioner.

My question is: Should the Minister of Canadian Heritage appear before the committee to answer questions about official languages and the Official Languages Act?

[Raymond Théberge]

Some portions of the act affect the minister's mandate, including CBC/Radio-Canada.