Evidence of meeting #114 for Official Languages in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chantal Ouellette  Administrative Manager, District Education Councils (Francophone Sector), Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick
Ghislain Bernard  Director General, Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard
Brad Samson  Director of Administrative and Financial Services, Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard
Robert Levesque  Member, Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick
Jean de Dieu Tuyishime  Chairman, Commission scolaire francophone des Territoires du Nord-Ouest

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 114 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages. I will of course review the guidelines for preventing acoustic incidents. Please place your earpiece on the table when you speak. There is a card on the table indicating steps to be taken to prevent acoustic incidents that may injure our interpreters, whom we really need. We mustn't make the situation worse, so please follow the guidelines.

A reminder, before I introduce the witnesses, that, for technical reasons, I adjourned the last meeting as though I was suspending it. We were already voting on Mr. Godin's motion, which our clerk has sent you once again for efficiency's sake. I know you remember because that was this past Tuesday. At any event, you have before you the motion that Mr. Godin tabled on Tuesday and that we will be putting to a vote. We will do that by a public show of hands, if there are no objections.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5 [See Minutes of Proceedings]).

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Now let's get down to business with the witnesses in attendance. Just a reminder that we are still studying the minority-language education continuum.

I would like to welcome the witnesses who are here with us and the others who are participating virtually in today's meeting. We have some prominent visitors, including two representatives from the Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau‑Brunswick, Chantal Ouellette, who is administrative manager for the francophone sector of the District Education Councils; and Robert Levesque, who is a member of that federation. Both are participating in this meeting by video conference. I remember that Mr. Levesque has previously appeared before this committee.

We also have Ghislain Bernard, who is general manager of the Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île‑du‑Prince‑Édouard, and Brad Samson, who is director of administrative and financial services.

Each organization will have five minutes for its presentation. I am strict about that. You will have five minutes and no more. Then there will be a series of questions and answers.

So welcome to you all.

Mrs. Ouellette, the floor is yours for exactly five minutes.

Chantal Ouellette Administrative Manager, District Education Councils (Francophone Sector), Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick

All right.

First, I would like to discuss access to early childhood services. Preschool programs must occupy a prominent position in the article 23 project under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms in order to maintain the minority language and culture. There is a shortage of spaces in French-language educational day care facilities, particularly for children 0 to 2 years of age, as a result of which parents are entitled to enrol their children in English-language day care centres. We are requesting an increase in available funding to create spaces in French-language educational day care centres.

Rural regions that do not have accredited educational day care services also need more funding, and incentives must be established so that such services can be made available to the francophone community in regions where English dominates.

Now let's discuss language upgrading and francization. Preschool programs are essential to the subsequent academic success of children and adolescents. When preschool-age children are enrolled at English-language educational day care services, francization services will be necessary from the moment they enter kindergarten. Currently, an average of two and a half hours of language proficiency upgrading is offered at the early childhood level, and that is not enough. We are therefore requesting increased funding so we can offer more language proficiency upgrading at the early childhood level to promote children's academic success.

According to the 2021 census, 11,070 children aged 0 to 4 years of age were eligible for official language minority instruction in New Brunswick, whereas 5,617 spaces at accredited day care facilities were available for those children in 2021–2022. Also according to census data, 49% of the 5,453 children who were eligible for francophone instruction did not have access to francophone educational day care services.

Furthermore, funding obtained by the official languages in education program, or OLEP, is important for minority language primary and secondary schools. However, the increase received from the official languages support programs, or OLSP, is clearly insufficient and prevents the federal government from meeting its official language obligations. We are requesting increased OLEP funding so we can meet the increasing needs of the minority language education system.

Funding for language upgrading at the primary and secondary levels is also inadequate. Language upgrading in rural regions, regions where English dominates and regions taking in large numbers of immigrant students is inadequate as well. The sharp rise in the number of immigrant students causes significant pressure and imbalance. That pressure should continue because Canada will continue focusing on immigration in the coming years. Consequently, we request increased funding for language upgrading so we can work with immigrant students as soon as they enter the schools. We are also seeking more funding to provide academic personnel with the necessary resources and knowledge to ensure that children are properly welcomed and can achieve academic success. Lastly, we are requesting funding so we can provide welcome and support services for the families of rights-holder parents and immigrant families to enable them to support their children on their learning journey.

We must also address the issue of inadequate and obsolete school infrastructure. The condition of a school has a direct impact on students' success. In 2020, New Brunswick's auditor general estimated that 62% of New Brunswick schools were, on average, 40 or more years old. Statistics Canada estimates that the lifespan of educational buildings is approximately 40 years. Significant investment will therefore be required to maintain, renovate or replace New Brunswick schools over the next few years.

The recent influx of immigrant students has also put additional pressure on school infrastructure. For many years now, for example, the District scolaire francophone Sud has requested new school infrastructure in the Saint John region to meet the needs of the francophone community. The Centre scolaire Samuel‑de‑Champlain and the École des Pionniers are the only two schools in the Saint John area.

In 2021, they had 919 students, whereas, according to Census 2021, a minimum of 2,155 students could attend those schools. Consequently, 1,236 students in that region of the province are not attending a French-language school.

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you, Mrs. Ouellette.

You will be able to say more in response to the questions you are asked.

I now turn the floor over to Mr. Bernard. You also have five minutes.

Ghislain Bernard Director General, Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard

I am deeply grateful for the opportunity to appear here today and to address your committee.

First of all, allow me to thank you sincerely for your invitation. I am very pleased to testify as part of your study on the minority-language education continuum.

I would like to express my gratitude to the members of this committee for their commitment to the protection and promotion of Canada's official languages.

In acknowledging the importance of minority-language education programs, the federal government plays an essential role in sustaining our francophone community, which, as on Prince Edward Island, is a minority community.

First of all, I would like to underscore the close and positive co-operation we enjoy with the provincial government of Prince Edward Island. That co-operation is vitally important because it enables us to meet certain challenges that we face as a francophone minority community. Despite those good relations, we know that the challenges are many and our situation unique.

Access to funding from the official languages in education program, or OLEP, is one of the pillars of our survival. That program plays a key role in the development and preservation of French-language education in our province. To be clear, without this agreement, our francophone schools and community educational centres would not even exist.

Although the provincial government relies on principles of equality in assessing educational needs, the agreement with OLEP constitutes an essential framework in achieving equity. Thanks to this agreement, it is possible to adopt policies and resources in order to meet the specific needs of all students, thus contributing to a more equitable and inclusive educational system. This distinction is essential because equality means providing the same resources for everyone, whereas equity means adjusting those resources in accordance with the specific needs of each person. The difference is critically important in our case because our situation as a francophone minority community is a special one.

Many of our francophone schools are small and scattered across various parts of Prince Edward Island, and their mission far exceeds that of mere educational institutions. They are also community school centres, places where our children learn, but also where the community gathers to live in French. That mission entails unique logistical, organizational and pedagogical challenges that anglophone majority schools face very rarely or not at all.

The current funding formulas clearly put our members at a disadvantage, thus limiting their ability to provide our students with French-language instruction of quality equivalent to that offered to the anglophone majority and in immersion programs. Although our needs are growing, federal funding under the official languages in education program, or OLEP, is still not enough for the Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île‑du‑Prince‑Édouard, the CSLF, for example, to guarantee equity with the majority language education system.

In the meantime, the cost of living is constantly rising, as is the number of students at our schools. This leaves us in a situation where it is becoming increasingly difficult to maintain the models of a high-quality francophone education.

Our francophone students, in many instances, are more geographically isolated, a fact that complicates the introduction of appropriate programs such as francization. This dispersion also makes it harder to recruit and retain teachers because the talent pool is small. As a result, efforts to achieve mere equality with anglophone schools disregard these facts. We need appropriate support, a model that acknowledges these challenges and that enables us to operate on an equal footing, and especially on an equitable model.

The restorative aspect of section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms means that many rights holders enter our francophone schools with low levels of proficiency in French. Our teachers must therefore adjust curricula to include additional francization work. This requires increased individual support. This francization effort must be acknowledged because it means additional work for teachers and has a direct impact on the quality of the education that we offer our students.

To guarantee that all students receive the support they require to learn French, we need to be able to adjust funding ratios and criteria in accordance with our specific needs. It is essential that funding models reflect this unique situation because only by acknowledging these specific characteristics can we provide a high-quality education to our francophone students and ensure their academic and cultural success.

The fact that our francophone schools are scattered across Prince Edward Island makes our organization more complex. This logistical challenge weighs heavily on our ability to recruit both students and skilled teachers. The distance between homes and schools often undermines access to French-language education for certain families.

Bus travel, which can be long and restrictive, further complicates the situation. For some students, long daily bus rides are a major obstacle to their academic development.

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you, Mr. Bernard. I know you had more to say, but, as you will see, you will be able to add more information in response to the upcoming excellent questions.

As you are new here, I would inform you that the first round of questions will be six minutes long for each political party. It's a period of interaction in the form of questions and answers.

We will begin with a Franco-Albertan who is now living in British Columbia.

Mr. Dalton, the floor is yours for six minutes.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks as well to the witnesses for the information they're providing us.

My question is for the representatives of the Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île‑du‑Prince‑Édouard.

I see that your budget increased significantly until 2013 and then plateaued. According to our information, you received $12 million from the Department of Canadian Heritage in 2023, but that amount has remained the same since 2008.

Is that information accurate? Is this situation increasingly causing you problems?

Brad Samson Director of Administrative and Financial Services, Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard

The $12 million was probably provided under a four-year agreement; it isn't paid out every year.

11:15 a.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

I see.

11:15 a.m.

Director of Administrative and Financial Services, Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard

Brad Samson

As I remember, in Prince Edward Island, $2.6 million or something like that is paid annually for French, as an official language minority language, and for French as a second language. There was an increase of approximately $200,000 last year.

As for the stability of that amount, you should know that every province has a different basic formula, a staffing and funding formula. That's what concerns the school board first and foremost.

I know that, in certain provinces, the formula takes francophone factors into account. There may also be support for little schools in the provincial formula outside the official languages in education program, or OLEP. There are no such factors in Prince Edward Island.

Under the agreement, we fund what we consider are basic services. Rightly or wrongly, that's our situation. We use the funding for purposes somewhat different from what we would like. However, the funding that's there has really been linked to existing resources for many years. It's hard to make changes to the way that funding is used because we could lose resources in the classrooms, for example.

I know that the agreement addresses student retention, for example. However, student retention in Prince Edward Island means that we have a teacher in a classroom who is funded under OLEP. That enables us to offer a fourth year in one province.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

What percentage of your francophone school board's schools budget comes from the federal level compared to the provincial contribution?

11:20 a.m.

Director of Administrative and Financial Services, Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard

Brad Samson

Most of the school board's funding comes from the provincial government. As for the schools aspect, we mostly have the necessary infrastructure, but the community preschool aspect is another matter.

Most of the operating budget comes from the province. Federal resources cover the shortfalls that aren't reflected in the funding and staffing formula, which takes into account the specific characteristics of an official language minority school board.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

Would you please tell us a little about the significance of francophone immigration and its impact on Prince Edward Island for the francophone community?

11:20 a.m.

Director of Administrative and Financial Services, Commission scolaire de langue française de l'Île-du-Prince-Édouard

Brad Samson

Prince Edward Island experiences the same events as other regions of Canada but with a slight delay. Immigration definitely plays a significant role, particularly in our urban centres, but that obviously depends on your definition of the word “urban”. For us, there are two. Immigration plays a significant role and requires more resources.

You should know that we have already observed a delay among the students who enter our schools: Some rights holders aren't necessarily proficient in French. The same is true of some immigrants. Even though they are in the francophone system, they also need support in learning English so they can earn the credits they need to graduate in our system.

Unfortunately, that's not one of the province's concerns.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

Thank you very much.

We see that the percentage of students attending francophone schools in New Brunswick is increasing. Congratulations.

What explains that increase?

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

You have 20 seconds left.

11:20 a.m.

Administrative Manager, District Education Councils (Francophone Sector), Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick

Chantal Ouellette

Most of that increase is due to immigration.

11:20 a.m.

Conservative

Marc Dalton Conservative Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC

You mentioned schools—

The Chair Liberal René Arseneault

Thank you. Your time is up. I'm sure you'll have an opportunity to come back to that.

The next member to speak is a native of Isle Madame.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for six minutes.

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thanks as well to our guests. This study is extremely important, and their presence here may help us sort out the situation, but it will also help make the people around this table more aware of the challenges.

With respect to the money from Canadian Heritage, I've had some experience as a director general. At one point, the deputy minister told us we had to review the funding that had been granted to us because we were receiving money from Canadian Heritage. However, provincial funding for education is provided in the same way for English and French institutions. The reason why Canadian Heritage provides money is that there are additional challenges that need to be addressed, but the province doesn't address them. That's why they come to the table.

I won't go too far here, and I don't know how aware you are of this, but I want to tell you that the amendments made to Bill C‑13 will, for the first time, include the preschool and post-secondary levels. So that opens the door to funding. Please bear that in mind because it's very important.

Furthermore, I don't know if you know this, but since the amendments were made by Bill C‑13, it has been possible to secure land on which to build schools. The provinces often tell the school boards that there's no land, but there is land for anglophones and not for francophones. However, the Official Languages Act now enables francophone school boards to acquire land.

Mrs. Ouellette, were you aware of those changes, which have modernized the Official Languages Act?

11:25 a.m.

Administrative Manager, District Education Councils (Francophone Sector), Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick

Chantal Ouellette

No, I wasn't aware that there was federal funding for land purchases. That's very good news for us.

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

You'll have to work hard.

11:25 a.m.

Administrative Manager, District Education Councils (Francophone Sector), Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick

Chantal Ouellette

Yes, we're going to need your support, Mr. Samson.

Darrell Samson Liberal Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS

I'm going to continue. I believe that a number of school districts have brought a case before the courts. Is that correct?

11:25 a.m.

Administrative Manager, District Education Councils (Francophone Sector), Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick

Chantal Ouellette

That's correct. The District scolaire francophone Sud has filed suit regarding school infrastructure.