Official Languages Committee on Oct. 10th, 2024

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

That also reflects what's happening in Manitoba. At the school where my children attend grade two, a qualified retired teacher unfortunately can't leave the school because there's no one to replace her. We're grateful for her efforts, but things shouldn't be that way.

I also want to ask you a question about the federal government's role.

We know that the provincial government plays a leading role in education. As French is in decline and early childhood and education from kindergarten to grade 12 should be the starting point for learning French, don't you think the federal government should take on more responsibility? Should it play a more prominent role in coming up with solutions to address this labour shortage in early childhood and French-language education?

[Ghislain Bernard]

These are complicated problems, and it's not easy to find solutions to them. However, we will definitely accept any possible assistance in finding certified immigrants who can and help us.

As for certification, that should be a more provincial jurisdiction. However, I believe we need to do everything to ensure our programs succeed and that everything can help.

[Brad Samson]

Allow me to add a few words. It's clear that the development and vitality of the francophone minority community definitely depends on the capacity of our day care centres to take in children, first of all, since they're also the springboard to our schools. That's part of the education continuum.

Anything that can aid in recruiting and training early childhood educators and in establishing infrastructure will definitely promote the vitality and sustainability of our francophone community in Prince Edward Island.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson. That's all the time we had.

Mr. Levesque, I believe you wanted to add something, so I'll allow you 15 seconds in which to do so.

[Robert Levesque, Member, Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau-Brunswick]

Fifteen seconds: That's quite a challenge.

I simply wanted to make a connection with the labour shortage in education. The Fédération des conseils d'éducation du Nouveau‑Brunswick has conducted a study on the subject. We are truly witnessing a decline in the number of graduates from the Université de Moncton, the only francophone university in New Brunswick. Briefly, I would say that there were 170 graduates, including graduates in primary, secondary and physical education. Then in subsequent years, there were respectively 178, 150 and 172.

However, here are the numbers of education graduates since 2018: There were 33 in 2018, 30 in 2019, 46 in 2020, 54 in 2021 and 57 and 2022. So we're witnessing a brutal decline in the number of graduates and in students' interest in education. We have to act. This is somewhat troubling. I just wanted to emphasize that this shortage is related to declining interest in education.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

I would add that, in the first week after we resumed parliamentary business, I read that 25% of teachers with fewer than 5 years' experience—so, young teachers—were leaving the profession. We need to bear in mind the fact that, as we speak, 25% of teachers with less than 5 years' experience are leaving the profession.

We have completed the first, six-minute round of questions. We will now go to a shorter round.

Ms. Gladu, a proud bilingual from Cornwall, has the floor.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I'm from Sarnia—Lambton.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all the witnesses.

It's very interesting to hear about the various situations. My mother was born in Prince Edward Island and my father in New Brunswick.

Mr. Bernard, you talked about the need to change the funding formula. What change would you like to see made?

[Ghislain Bernard]

I'm going to ask Mr. Samson to answer that question.

[Brad Samson]

The present funding formula was established at a time when there was a large French school in Prince Edward Island. The formula met the needs of the moment. Following the Arsenault-Cameron affair in 2000, four francophone schools were added. The problem is how to interpret the formula. You have to understand that we have small schools ranging from kindergarten to grade 12. Sometimes the formula itself is the problem; some factors are calculated and others not. At other times, the way the formula is interpreted causes enormous resource-related harm.

Consider a small school, for example. One factor in the funding formula deals with that. A school with 200 students or less will receive an additional teacher. That may be a junior high school offering grades 7, 8 and 9 on the anglophone side, or a school offering kindergarten to grade 12. With the variety of programs that we must offer from kindergarten to grade 12, it's impossible to believe that only one additional teacher can cover the shortfall. Our classes are obviously very small.

That example illustrates several factors that the formula doesn't take into account.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Just—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm going to interrupt you, Ms. Gladu, and I'm stopping the clock.

I'm going back over what has been said. I did this on Tuesday as well. We aren't in your shoes. You are experts. You are discussing funding. There's provincial funding, the funding formula and OLEP. I would ask you to clarify what this is about, please, and then we will take notes and write a report.

Ms. Gladu, you may continue.

I will restart the clock.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Mrs. Ouellette, considering the rising cost of living, you said you were already short of funding. How much money do you need?

[Chantal Ouellette]

I don't have the figures with me, but I can give you an answer later, if you wish.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Yes, that's a good idea. You could also include the changes you would like to make to the funding formula. You can send your answer to the clerk.

Mr. Bernard, what should the federal government do to help you?

[Ghislain Bernard]

First, we would like to be a stakeholder in the negotiations regarding the official languages in education program, or OLEP, agreements. The agreements are reached with the provincial government, but we aren't involved. I'd like a seat at the table so we can take part in the negotiations and discuss our priorities.

Second, we should establish what we need in order to have francophone schools that are on an equitable level with the majority schools. I use the word “equitable”; that could mean something as simple as the travel time to school. The usual travel time to a local school in the anglophone school boards is approximately an hour; it's about an hour and 20 minutes for the francophone schools. So there's already a disadvantage in going to a francophone school in Prince Edward Island, which we don't think should be the case.

We think that OLEP funding could help us put the francophone education system on an equitable footing with the majority language system.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

I see. Thank you.

I'm going to ask you the same question, Mrs. Ouellette.

[Chantal Ouellette]

The answer for New Brunswick is the same as our colleague's answer for Prince Edward Island.

I have nothing more to say, except that Mr. Levesque may have something to add.

[Robert Levesque]

I actually like what Mr. Bernard said: that we need to be stakeholders and at the bargaining table. It's true that the education councils are consulted, but they don't necessarily have a right or decision-making power.

I'd like to remind you that the education councils, the ECs, are elected by universal suffrage, as are provincial and federal members. These are people who represent the voice of rights-holder parents.

In my opinion, the fact that they sit on an education council but don't necessarily have authority to make budget-related decisions is definitely a problem. I think it would be a good start for the school boards to be stakeholders and sit at the bargaining table. They're elected by universal suffrage to represent rights holders.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Levesque and Ms. Gladu.

The next speaker represents a riding in the Quebec City area.

Mr. Lightbound, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to go back to the questions my colleague Mr. Samson asked, although I'll definitely be doing so in a less eloquent and colourful manner.

Something piqued my curiosity, and I'm going to draw a somewhat simple analogy. My son was born last year. If I used the data from last year to establish my budget, it wouldn't be balanced because there are more demands and needs this year.

If I understand what my colleague explained and what you've confirmed, the budgets that the province grants you are based on the previous year's numbers and therefore on the number of enrolments from the previous year. That's an advantage for school boards that have a declining clientele and a disadvantage for those with a growing clientele, which is your case.

Is that a correct understanding?

Would you please tell us more about that situation?

Has that always been the case?

What impact does that have on your funding and activities?

My question is for Mrs. Ouellette, but then Mr. Levesque may answer it too.

[Chantal Ouellette]

I'm going to ask Mr. Levesque to answer the question first.

[Robert Levesque]

First and foremost, I must say that I like what Mr. Samson said, that the government always relies on a previous list which isn't adequate given the numbers. Consequently, there's a shortfall every year.

I'd like to digress for a moment. We were discussing the rising cost of living earlier. Every dollar that we received from OLEP 10 or 12 years ago is only worth $0.56 today. That's the result of inflation and the 20% increase in the number of students at francophone schools. Consequently, the purchasing power of a dollar is now equal to $0.56.

According to the new agreement for 2023–2028, there have been increases, which we're glad to see, but there's still a significant shortfall because a dollar is only worth $0.67, even allowing for inflation and the rising numbers of students in the francophone schools. Inflation affects all of us.

[Joël Lightbound, Liberal, Louis-Hébert, QC]

If my understanding is correct, according to the figures we're relying on, we should consider the initial purchasing power of the dollars previously invested in the program. However, are student registration numbers an issue that's on the New Brunswick government's radar?

Is it being discussed?

Do you view it as unfair?

[Robert Levesque]

I'm going to ask Mrs. Ouellette to answer your questions.

[Chantal Ouellette]

There's been an increase in the number of francophone students in New Brunswick since 2021. The number of francophone students had previously fallen. So this is a new situation that we're still adjusting to.

As regards budgets, the government offers adjustments during the year, when school districts have tightened their belts as far as they can and have to beg the department for money to avoid an end-of-year deficit.