Official Languages Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

This meeting is called to order.

Welcome to meeting number 115 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

To prevent feedback incidents, I would remind all in-person participants to read the guidelines written on the cards on the table.

I would also remind you all to wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. All comments must be addressed through the chair. Please raise your hand if you wish to speak, whether you are participating in person or via Zoom. The clerk and I will do our best to follow the speaking order of those with raised hands and to recognize you.

Before we enter into the subject of the meeting with our witnesses, I would remind you that you received a news release about the report we prepared on the economic development of official language minority communities. I will be presenting the report at 10 a.m. this Thursday.

That said, we will now—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Will there be a news conference on Parliament Hill?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

No, but you all received the news release.

We will now turn to the subject of the meeting, the minority-language education continuum.

For our first group of witnesses, it is an honour to welcome Pierre Foucher, retired constitutional law professor, as an individual. We also welcome two representatives of the Ontario French Catholic School Trustees Association, Robert Demers, chair, and Yves Lévesque, executive director.

Welcome to you all.

I want to let everyone know, the witnesses and those attending in person or participating via Zoom, that I will be very strict with time management to make sure that everyone can ask a lot more questions.

Mr. Lévesque and Mr. Demers, I believe this is your first time appearing before this committee, which is the best one on Parliament Hill.

Mr. Foucher, you know how this works and have appeared before the committee before.

The witnesses will have five minutes for their opening remarks. That will be followed by the question and answer period. It is really interesting and it will go smoothly.

Mr. Généreux, do you have a question?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Before going any further, regarding the news release that will be or has been published, could we talk about it later on in the meeting, after we have heard from the witnesses?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Could we do that in the last five or ten minutes of the meeting?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Do you want to do that in camera?

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay. We can talk about it in the last ten minutes of the second hour because we have to allow five minutes to go in camera.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Perfect, thank you. Remind me if I forget.

Mr. Foucher, you have just five minutes. Please go ahead.

[Pierre Foucher, Retired Professor, As an Individual]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, I would like to commend you on your political involvement. You were a law school student of mine at the University of Moncton. I want to congratulate you on your career in politics and for everything you have done. I wish you the best in all of your endeavours.

Honourable members, thank you for inviting me. I have not had a lot of time to prepare, so you will understand that my remarks are general. I am here today as a lawyer and law professor. I want to point out that I cannot give you a legal opinion since I am no longer a member of the bar; I will simply provide information about points of law.

I will start with something obvious that you also know: Education falls under provincial jurisdiction. The federal government's role and avenues for action are therefore limited. It cannot regulate on specific matters related to education, such as program content, exam conditions, teacher discipline or any matter directly related to education.

Looking at the scope of your mandate for the present study, I note that the concept of the education continuum, which is useful for educators and education stakeholders, goes far beyond primary and secondary education, ranging from early childhood to universities, and including continuing education and professional training. Some of those areas are protected by section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, while the status of others is less clear. I will come back to that.

The federal government does nonetheless have some avenues for action. The exercise of its spending power, whose constitutional validity is undeniable in the current state of the law, enables it to provide assistance, sometimes substantial, to convince the provinces and territories to cover the full range of minority education rights guaranteed by the Constitution. Its spending power is now entrenched in the new part VII of the Official Languages Act, which imposes more specific requirements on the government as regards education in particular.

I will comment very briefly on each aspect of the study mandate.

The first component is early childhood education. Despite its importance for the development of primary and secondary education as part of the education continuum, this component has not yet been covered by section 23, as seen in the case law from the Northwest Territories Court of Appeal. The Supreme Court of Canada has never ruled on this. Francophone constitutional specialists from outside Quebec continue to argue for extending section 23 to early childhood education. The same goes for after-school programs, although the community component of federal programs for the construction of new schools does provide funding for such spaces. The arguments for extending section 23 to day care are convincing, since the concept of instruction can be interpreted broadly and liberally.

The second component is funding for primary and secondary schools. This falls squarely under section 23, bringing into play concepts that have recently been developed in the case law: the presumed insufficient number of individuals and real equivalency in the quality of the educational experience. These concepts include various elements in which the federal government could play a helpful role.

The third component is post-secondary education. While there are strong arguments for including preschool education under section 23, even if they have not yet been established by the case law, that is not the case for post-secondary education. It is unfortunate, one could say as a defender of official language minorities, because access to post-secondary education is essential for the growth and vitality of linguistic communities. In that regard, I believe the Official Languages Act provides a sufficient framework to establish an official languages in education program specifically for post-secondary institutions.

At this point, I would like to comment on something I see as an inconsistency on the part of the federal government. On the one hand, it wants to encourage post-secondary institutions, but on the other, its temporary immigration policies are reducing the number of international students at those institutions. Those reductions are also questionable—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 10 seconds left, Mr. Foucher.

[Pierre Foucher]

Okay. My last point is about the effects of the education continuum—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm sorry to interrupt you, Mr. Foucher, but you have gone well over your five minutes. You will have the opportunity to say more during the question period.

[Pierre Foucher]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

My apologies.

Mr. Lévesque or Mr. Demers, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Robert Demers, Chair, Ontario French Catholic School Trustees Association]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good morning, committee members.

I am Robert Demers, chair of the Ontario French Catholic School Trustees Association, or AFOCSC. I am also vice-chair of the Providence Catholic School Board, in southwestern Ontario. With me is Yves Lévesque, executive director of the AFOCSC. Our offices are in Toronto.

The AFOCSC would like to thank the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages for the opportunity to present its views, concerns and some of its recommendations in a brief to committee members.

Since it was officially founded in 1998, the AFOCSC has represented French Catholic school boards in Ontario. Serving its members, it defends their interests and promotes French Catholic education to governments on behalf of the Franco-Ontario community. As the voice of the eight Catholic school boards and the Consortium Centre Jules‑Léger, which offers services to deaf and blind students from across the province, the AFOCSC advocates for the needs and growth of the school network to government bodies at the municipal, provincial and federal levels.

As a representative of the Crown and as an employer, and with considerable support from its members, the French Catholic school boards, the AFOCSC negotiates working conditions that provide for quality French Catholic education for students and positive labour relations for staff, in co‑operation with the various unions.

Through co‑operation, networking and partnered initiatives, AFOCSC members strive in particular to safeguard the distinctiveness of French Catholic education in all aspects of programs of study and the educational process. We seek equity for all French Catholic schools, based on the real needs rooted in our distinctiveness. Finally, we strive to uphold the rights guaranteed by the Constitution Act, 1867, and the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

French Catholic education is one of the four school systems in Ontario and it receives steadfast support from the vast majority of French Catholic parents. French Catholic schools, which are chosen by close to 70% of francophone parents in Ontario, currently serve more than 77,000 elementary and secondary students. We have more than 180 French-language school day care facilities for children aged from 18 months to 4 years, which are a pillar of success for our schools and community development. In total, we have about 77,000 students, 300 schools and 11,000 employees, and French Catholic education is the choice of about 7 out of 10 parents.

Given the pressing challenges facing French-language education in Ontario, including underfunding, the teacher shortage and unequal access, governments must take immediate and decisive action. By implementing or supporting the recommendations in our brief, the federal government can help guarantee quality and equitable education for Franco-Ontarian students, and preserve and strengthen the distinctive character of French Catholic education in Ontario, for Canada.

In conclusion, the Ontario French Catholic School Trustees Association brief provides an overview of the challenges facing French Catholic education in Ontario. To meet those challenges, we recommend, first of all, increasing federal funding specifically for school transportation, early childhood education and teacher recruitment and retention. Second, we recommend simplifying approval processes for school construction and infrastructure projects. Third, we recommend increasing support for French-language universities in order to expand training and increase the number of qualified French teachers. Finally, we recommend a renewed commitment to equity so that all Franco-Ontarian students have equal access to quality education.

By implementing those recommendations, the various levels of government can demonstrate their commitment to the Franco-Ontarian community and to the principles of equity and quality. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Demers. You may provide committee members with further information during the upcoming question and answer period.

Each political party will now have six minutes to ask the witnesses questions and hear their answers. Once again, I will be very strict with your speaking time. Everyone has the same time as I do: If an MP asks a question in the sixth minute, there will not be enough time. That will give everyone as much time as possible to ask more questions thereafter.

Let us begin.

Ms. Gladu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to welcome all of the witnesses.

Mr. Lévesque and Mr. Demers, I am very proud to have four Catholic schools in my riding. Is there a difference in the federal support provided to Catholic schools as opposed to public schools?

[Yves Lévesque, Executive Director, Ontario French Catholic School Trustees Association]

No, the funding is the same.

As we and Mr. Foucher have stated, education is publicly funded in Ontario. The four systems are therefore funded by the provincial government. Federal funding is provided through agreements between the two levels of government. Under the Canada-Ontario agreement, for example, certain funds are directed to the province to support certain programs. Access to public schools and Catholic schools is therefore the same. The amounts are not the same, of course, but each system has the same access to funding.

You have to remember that 70% of students attend Catholic schools and 30% attend public schools. You have to bear that ratio in mind when figuring things out.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

We have heard there is a shortage of francophone teachers. How many teachers are needed?

[Yves Lévesque]

We are going into the tenth year of the shortage of francophone teachers in Ontario. Right now, we need about 5,000 francophone teachers for French-language schools in order to restore balance and operate properly, that is, with call-back lists, substitute teachers and qualified staff at all levels.

We suggested that about 1,000 teachers should be trained every year to make up for the shortfall. Right now, there are only about 400 or 450 students who complete education degrees every year. In addition, more and more people are retiring. So the shortage is getting worse, and that is undermining the quality of education in schools.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Foucher, would you like to finish your presentation? Then I could ask questions about the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms and federal funding.

[Pierre Foucher]

Thank you, Ms. Gladu.

I had one last point about the enumeration of rights holders, which is included in your mandate. Enumeration has already begun and the federal government now has figures on rights holders, which show a gap between the proportion of rights holders attending French-language schools and those who do not.

I would like to point out that the most recent Supreme Court decision calls on provincial and territorial governments to consider section 23 of the Charter when deciding on admitting people who are not rights holders into minority-language schools. I am referring to people who do not have the constitutional right to minority-language education, but who want to attend French-language schools, such as immigrants. From now on, ministries of education must consider the objectives of section 23 when they make decisions about admitting those people.