Official Languages Committee on Oct. 22nd, 2024

[Yves Lévesque]

To get to that point, there would need to be an acknowledgement of harm on the part of the government, perhaps following a lawsuit, and then there would have to be reparation, obviously.

I think the problem today is that the specificity of francophones in Ontario is not necessarily recognized, so we're often treated just like other school boards. The current approach is that we are all the same, but that's not true. French and English-language educational needs differ. French-language education often costs more. For change to happen, the provincial government would have to recognize the needs, and that probably applies to all the other provinces as well. It's a challenge. Reparations would be a good idea, but that's another process.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

There could be a legal process for the acknowledgement of harm, for instance, through the court challenges program. Does anyone intend to use that avenue to get the Ontario government to acknowledge these harms?

[Yves Lévesque]

Mr. Foucher is likely in a better position to answer that question than I am.

What I can say is that it's an important case that should be brought before the courts. That would mean challenging French-language education in Ontario as administered by the governments of the day. That's a big job.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Lévesque and Mr. Beaulieu.

The next questioner is Ms. Ashton, who represents a riding in northern Manitoba.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

Mr. Lévesque, what impact is the shortage of teachers and early childhood educators having on your schools? Do you think the federal government has a key role to play in finding solutions to this shortage?

[Yves Lévesque]

That's an excellent question.

The staff shortage is clearly having an impact in schools. When you're forced to hire what we'd call unqualified teachers in schools because there's a shortage of qualified ones, it affects continuity. We don't always have teachers who are certified or who have the necessary skills, even though they are generally capable of doing the job. These are teachers who are not yet certified, but who have certain skills. It's a temporary solution to the staff shortage. It's a challenge.

There's also a challenge on the early childhood services side. Training for people who work with children is inadequate, and university training for certified teachers is insufficient. I do believe that the federal government can do something to increase teacher training in universities. That would have an effect on training capacity. At this point, even if we wanted to do more, we wouldn't have more teachers coming out of university. You can train 400 teachers, but that doesn't necessarily mean they'll all be teaching overnight. They won't all automatically become teachers. They may have gotten their certificates, but that doesn't mean they'll end up in schools and called to work the next day. We can assume that 80% of these individuals will end up in schools, but 20% of them will be lost to other sectors.

We need to increase the number of spots in universities, as well as the number of educators or early childhood educators, to create a big enough pool of employees. It can be a temporary solution. It doesn't necessarily have to be permanent, but it does need to be considered for both early childhood as well as post-secondary education.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Lévesque.

Mr. Foucher, I'll ask you the same question on the repercussions of the labour shortage. Do you think the federal government has a role to play in dealing with the shortage and coming up with solutions?

[Pierre Foucher]

Thank you for the question.

I'd first like to add to Mr. Lévesque's comment on school bus transportation. A member of the Conseil scolaire acadien provincial in Nova Scotia said that 10 more French-language elementary schools are needed in Halifax. This proves that the problem affects all of Canada, not just Ontario.

To your question, I'd say the teacher shortage is very serious. What can the federal government do? As Mr. Lévesque mentioned, more spots must be made available in education faculties. The government has successfully intervened in some sectors in the past. I'm living proof of this, as is your chair. Prior to the early 1980s, no common law programs were taught in French, and the federal government, by getting involved, managed to put programs in place in Ottawa and Moncton, and a few in western Canada, as well. This type of intervention has been undertaken before and it can be done for education, too. I think it's the key. One of the next section 23 battles will be about the teacher shortage.

I come back to my earlier suggestion of setting up a post-secondary official language education program modelled on the official language teaching program that's worked well for elementary and secondary education.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you. We all support putting in new measures to deal with the labour shortage, which affects us all.

Thanks for your feedback, Mr. Foucher. Your comment on the government's initiative several years ago in the field of law is very interesting. Something similar could be done in education. It's obvious that action is needed to respond to this ever-worsening labour shortage and the high demand for education in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thanks, Ms. Ashton.

We now go to two more rounds of questions, for five minutes and then two and a half minutes.

Mr. Généreux, you have five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

Mr. Demers, in your opening remarks, you spoke many times about Catholic schools. If I understand correctly, you represent seven out of 10 pupils in Ontario. I gather that the three other pupils attend public francophone schools, which are likewise funded.

The purpose of our study is to determine how we can improve the education continuum, starting with early childhood. You talked about day care for children between 18 months and four years old, while Mr. Foucher discussed the university sector.

If we want to look at schooling over the next 15, 20 or 30 years, the question we need to ask is the following: What can the federal government do now to prevent disruptions to service or quality in the education continuum?

We know that many francophone immigrants are being welcomed throughout Canada, and there's a big focus on immigration. In fact, the government has boasted about reaching the 4% francophone immigration target it set long ago.

I see the repercussions of potentially training teachers from abroad here in Canada, so they can fill the void in our schools and ease the labour shortage, like a chain. Where, though, can we currently expect this chain, or continuum, to break or be weakened?

Let's begin with you, Mr. Lévesque.

[Yves Lévesque]

I'll expand on Mr. Foucher's comment about schools. If we wanted to bring Ontario rights holders into our school system, 150 schools would have to be built. That's a major shortage preventing the inclusion of all rights holders, even if we know that they wouldn't all attend our schools.

It's obvious that the chain is broken or snags at several points, as you've said, which raises questions.

As Mr. Foucher mentioned, section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms does not necessarily provide protection or a guarantee of minority French-language education at all levels. That creates problems at the early childhood level, in particular. Nothing is guaranteed at the secondary or post-secondary level, either.

What's more, there are currently no guarantees ensuring that francophone students could take teacher training in French. For example, the University of Ottawa is bilingual and offers a teacher education program in both English and French, but nothing guarantees that the French program will always be offered. If there are more anglophone students one year, there will be fewer francophone students. In other words, there are no guaranteed spots that would allow 500 francophones, let's say, to take the program each year.

Should it be easier to bring immigrant teachers into the system? That's a question for the Ontario College of Teachers. It could determine how to better or more rapidly integrate these teachers into the system. Teachers trained at the three Ontario universities who complete their certification year should automatically be allowed to work in our schools. That's not the case, however, because the Ontario College of Teachers still uses a drawn-out process.

Many factors in the system therefore hurt the continuum.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lévesque.

Can you provide the committee with an exhaustive list of the factors that, in your opinion, have an impact on this chain?

You referred to unqualified teaching positions, among other things. It would be useful for us to have more information on this topic. However, we currently have only five minutes to ask all the witnesses questions, and there is never enough time to get through all of our thoughts. That said, the issue you just raised is important.

What are your thoughts, Mr. Foucher?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Foucher, you have 20 seconds.

[Pierre Foucher]

I will try to respond in 20 seconds.

First, because day care and early childhood learning services are often located on the same grounds as the school, sometimes even within the school itself, it's possible to take actions.

Second, to train teachers, you need education programs, and to get education programs, you need universities. Students need access to well-funded French-language universities. That is where the federal government can help.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Foucher.

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here today. I am pleased to see you again, Mr. Demers, Mr. Lévesque and Mr. Foucher.

Mr. Foucher, you raised two important issues. First, you mentioned the education continuum. I believe it is essential. In Nova Scotia, we've seen how important access to education in French from the age of four is.

That said, I want to dig a little deeper. I'm sure you know that the Official Languages Act, which was modernized under Bill C-13, refers a few times to early childhood and post-secondary education, specifically in subsections 41(3), 41(6) and 93.1(1.2). With the addition of these provisions to the Official Languages Act, has Bill C-13 enhanced section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms from a legal standpoint?

[Pierre Foucher]

Yes, the provisions complement section 23. They provide all the tools needed for the federal government to take concrete action in support of French-language education.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's exactly the answer I was looking for.

I'm now going to talk about another issue. You have often said that school boards should sign memoranda of understanding on minority official language education. Are you aware that the federal government and the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones have signed a strategic agreement for francophone minority school boards to be consulted and to be able to share their priorities with the government?

[Pierre Foucher]

Yes, I'm aware of that, and I think it's a good initiative that should continue.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It's a start. That's exactly the answer I was looking for.

I'm going to suggest a new mechanism. If I'm wrong, you can tell me.

A 1990 court decision confirmed the right of francophones in minority communities to establish independent school boards in control of their destiny. However, isn't that like allowing someone to build a house but not giving them money for the wood? We allow the establishment of francophone school boards, but we don't give them the money to operate.

Haven't we reached the point where we can say that section 23 gives school boards the right to negotiate directly with the federal government for French-language education outside Quebec?

[Pierre Foucher]

I wouldn't venture to comment on that. As I told you at the outset, I am no longer a member of the bar. Therefore, I can't give a legal opinion. All I can say is that it would be desirable.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I'm taking the liberty of saying it, because I say what I want when I want, in fact. Thank you, Mr. Foucher.

Mr. Demers and Mr. Lévesque, thanks to an amendment that was added to Bill C‑13, the Official Languages Act now has a provision that says school boards or provinces with school building needs must be consulted when the federal government sells real property, such as land. In other words, minority school boards can have access to federal government lands. Are you aware of that?

[Yves Lévesque]

Yes, but it’s still done through the province.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It’s still done through the province, but I’ll tell you something. Three years ago, I worked with the Province of Nova Scotia, and we were able to put pressure on the Canada Lands Company to buy the land we wanted in downtown Halifax. We had been looking for land for 20 years. It’s very important to know about that option. We need to talk about it at the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones conference. It's being held this weekend, and you'll be attending. Let’s discuss that, because it’s very important.

Second, I want to congratulate the Province of Ontario, because it gives 68% of the federal funding under the protocol for agreements for minority-language education to francophone school boards and only 32% to anglophone school boards. In that regard, it is the best province in the country. In Nova Scotia, 51% of federal funding goes to francophones and 49% goes to anglophones. In Newfoundland and Labrador, 33% of the funding goes to francophones. You can imagine how difficult that is.

Can we say that, in Ontario, 80% of students who enter kindergarten don’t speak the language of the institution? That’s the case in Nova Scotia.