Official Languages Committee on Oct. 24th, 2024

[Sylvianne Maisonneuve]

I'd say there should be a lot, but I'm going to let Mrs. Bourque give you a more statistical answer.

[Gisèle Bourque]

It has to be said that we weren't responsible for managing francophone schools 30 years ago. There were 360 students at two francophone schools at the time. Ten years later, in 1994, there were 2,100 students attending 14 schools. Another 10 years later, there were 6,000 students attending 37 schools. Today, we have 45 schools for 9,000 students. If you consider that 67,000 students are eligible for instruction in French, we will need at least 100 or so schools 10 years from now.

You have to understand that people in a city like Edmonton want to send their children to a neighbourhood school. You say that your riding, where I also live, has five French-language schools, but each of them has a student pool possibly the size of 10 neighbourhoods, whereas parents actually want a neighbourhood school, a francophone school that's in their neighbourhood or within a radius of 10 kilometres or so.

The real problem for francophone school boards are the significant sums of money they have to allocate to school transportation due to the fact that there aren't enough schools. Consequently, over the next 10 years, we will definitely need another 100 or so francophone schools in Alberta. I imagine that many other provinces in Canada might have the same need.

Neighbourhood schools are therefore very important in offering services to the francophone population, and they must also be of a level of quality equivalent to that of anglophone schools. If the schools we wind up with are just schools that anglophones no longer want, that's really a problem.

For example, I replaced the principal of a school with 260 students from late February to late June. That school had been leased from an anglophone school board. The building had been constructed for students from grade 7 to 9, but I had students from grade 7 to 12. That'll give you an idea of the problems we experience in the schools.

In Alberta, we still have francophone schools that don't have a gymnasium or that can't offer certain programs, in the early childhood field, for example, because they don't have the necessary premises.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

I'll ask this next question because I know that there are so many people in Edmonton who want to put their children into immersion and I know that we had asked that this committee would look at immersion education within this study. That's not part of this study, but I do want to talk about the fact that there is no access for so many people to French language education. While we know that education is predominantly a provincial jurisdiction, the federal government has that obligation as well.

I wonder if you could talk briefly about how difficult it has been to work with the provincial government on this. We know with regard to Campus Saint-Jean that the provincial government failed to meet its obligations to fund the campus. The campus, of course, is the primary place where French teachers get the education that allows them to work in the schools.

I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about that.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have less than 15 seconds.

[Sylvianne Maisonneuve]

Mr. Chair, do I have to answer in English or in French?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You may answer in the language of your choice. We have an interpretation service here.

There are 15 seconds left.

[Sylvianne Maisonneuve]

All right.

That's a complex question, and there's no easy answer. On the one hand, we've made gains by co-operating with the provincial government, and, on the other hand, we're facing challenges. The lines of communication are definitely open, but the decision-making is very slow—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Pardon me, Ms. Maisonneuve, but I must interrupt because we've already exceeded six and a half minutes. I want us to be able to ask as many questions as possible. That was a very interesting start of an answer. You will certainly have a chance to say more later.

Ms. Gladu, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to all the witnesses.

My first question will be for Mr. Giroux.

You said that you have seen a growth in domestic students. Is it equal across all your locations? Is it in certain programs? Could you elaborate?

[Daniel Giroux]

There are three major sites where we've seen growth.

The first is the one in Sudbury, a four-hour drive north of Toronto. The second campus where we are seeing excellent growth is in downtown Toronto, in the Distillery District, which I urge you to visit if you have not yet had a chance, because it is a terrific campus. The third campus experiencing strong growth is in Windsor, in the farthest south part of the province.

Where we have seen incredible growth is mainly in the trades and health care programs. When I say trades, I am talking about programs to train electricians, heavy machinery mechanics, carpenters and plumbers. Health care programs enable people to work as practical nurses or personal support workers, for example. Those are the two areas where we have seen significant growth.

We have also seen major growth in our public administration program, a new program that focuses on support for municipalities and communities that are looking to hire bilingual individuals. This is a business administration program that combines community, municipal, federal and provincial components. It has 200 students at present, all of whom have found full-time jobs, which is truly incredible. There is a severe shortage in this aspect of public administration. Whenever I go out into the communities, the first thing I hear is that they need bilingual people to work in the organizations.

That is where we have seen the most growth.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

You mentioned that you've seen a disconnect between the government wanting $10-a-day day care but then cutting the immigration for the ECE students. I think it might be a similar situation with our aging population and the need for more PSWs and nurses. They've cut that as well at the college level.

Could you let me know how this is going to impact your colleges?

[Daniel Giroux]

There will be an incredible impact.

For the early childhood education program, since international students make up 50% of our student body, it means that we will be losing 50% of new enrolments in that program. So we will lose half of the students in that field.

But we are one of the largest providers of francophone educators in Ontario, if not the largest. If Collège Boréal has its enrolments and graduates cut by half, what will the consequences be for child care and the economy? Often, access to $10 a day child care services is what makes it possible for moms and dads to go out to work. So there is going to be a huge crisis.

There will also be an impact on the four-year bachelor's degree in nursing program we offer. Students enrolled in the practical nursing program, a two-year program, are eligible for a study permit issued by Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, but students enrolled in the bachelor's in nursing program are not. That means that we will not be able to graduate as many nurses.

But the fact is that there is a huge shortage of francophone and bilingual nurses in Ontario. Operating rooms are having to close because of the shortage of nurses. As we know, the population of some communities in Ontario is 35% to 40% francophone. If they do not have these francophone and bilingual nurses, the crisis will be enormous. This will be a real loss to our communities.

[Marilyn Gladu, Conservative, Sarnia—Lambton, ON]

Okay.

My next question is for Ms. Bourque, and it's about trying to get equivalency for the French language in Alberta.

You talked about the number of schools you would need. It's a huge number. Is there any way of sharing space with the English school board and creating bilingual schools so that they would be closer for the parents?

[Gisèle Bourque]

Where possible, we are already doing it. A school was built in Jasper about eight years ago and we share it with the anglophones. This is not the best situation, however. You have to understand that our students in minority communities really like speaking English, so it is really important to preserve places that allow them to speak French as much as possible.

There are also anglophone school boards that have given us land. I don't mean that sharing with anglophones doesn't happen, but in reality our schools are not always equivalent to the majority schools.

It is a question of infrastructure, which is one aspect of equivalence.

Problems can also arise for us with the measures proposed by the provincial government. I will give you an example. In the mandate letter from the Premier of Alberta to her Minister of Education, she says that it is essential to promote the opportunity for students to participate in training in the skilled trades—but in Alberta, the only French-language post-secondary institution is Campus Saint‑Jean, a small college that offers three programs for skilled trades.

At the moment, one of our efforts with the provincial government involves explaining that the structure it has created can't work for us. However, we have some solutions. Is it prepared to allow us to work with other bodies, such as Collège Boréal, outside Alberta? That would be one possibility. We are—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm sorry, Mrs. Bourque, but I have the difficult job of interrupting you, because we have gone well over time. I must now give the floor to Mr. Samson. You might have an opportunity to continue explaining this with him.

Mr. Samson, the floor is yours.

Just a minute, it isn't working. We seem to be having the same technical problems as before. I am stopping the clock.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I have reconnected now.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

It's working. I am restarting the clock.

By the way, I mistakenly gave the last speaker almost six minutes and 20 seconds rather than five minutes. So I am going to do the same thing for everyone.

Mr. Samson, the floor is yours.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. You know that every second counts. This is very important in minority communities.

I would first like to say hello to my colleagues.

Mr. Giroux, I am very glad to see you again.

Ms. Maisonneuve, it has been a long time since we spoke.

Mrs. Bourque, you are a former teammate at the Conseil scolaire acadien provincial. I am delighted to hear what you have to say.

Because my time is limited, my questions will be to the point. I would like your answers to be, as well. I am going to limit my background remarks.

Mr. Giroux, I am going to start with you.

Very quickly, congratulations on the 100% job guarantee offered by your college. That is very impressive.

Regarding the scholarships awarded to anglophones and not francophones, that decision was made by the province. You should be having discussions with the province about that. In Nova Scotia, in the past, Acadians were not given priority. Since they accounted for only 5% of the population, they were drowned out by all the rest when it came to getting financial aid. They were not all able to make it to the surface, so when they managed to get aid it was a bit of a stroke of luck. These things need to get resolved quickly.

Regarding early childhood education, I know that you are aware that Bill C‑13 puts some flesh on the bones. Pre-school and post-secondary education now get mentioned as part of the education continuum. This will expand the issue of official languages in education and increase demand in your communities.

Regarding the measures to limit immigration, there is going to have to be a conversation with the federal Minister of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship. There is a structure in place for education and medicine, but early childhood education may need to be added.

Can you comment a bit in 30 seconds, please?

[Daniel Giroux]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Samson.

On the subject of scholarships to study in French, a scholarship awarded by Ontario to study in French was eliminated a few years ago. However, the $3,000 scholarship awarded to students coming out of anglophone school boards' immersion programs who want to pursue their education in French is given by Canadian Heritage. It comes directly from the federal government, via the ACUFC, the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, which takes the lead on this. That comes out of federal funds, not provincial.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Good, you know where the problem is and you are able to take action. If you ever want to discuss it with me at the same time, I am prepared to help in your efforts.

[Daniel Giroux]

Excellent.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I am now going to turn to my friends from the Fédération des conseils scolaires francophones de l'Alberta.

As I said, this study is extremely important in terms of the education continuum, from pre-school to the post-secondary level. I am pleased to have this opportunity.

You are certainly familiar with the strategic agreement that was signed seven or eight years ago by the Department of Canadian Heritage and the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones. That agreement requires that you be consulted. I note that negotiations are currently under way between the Government of Alberta and the Government of Canada regarding funding for OLEP, the Official Languages in Education Program, if I understand correctly.

Have you been consulted?

[Gisèle Bourque]

Yes, we are being consulted, but we are treated the same as immersion schools. The francophone population in our communities is growing rapidly and we often have to prove this in order to justify our needs. This is where the censuses are extremely important. Despite 30 years of education and school management in French, there is still a kind of skepticism. We are asked why, if the francophone population is actually growing, they are not attending our schools.

So yes, we are being consulted, but it is never easy to debate how to divide it up between what is going to be for the immersion schools and what is going to be ours. It is still very difficult.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you for your answer. I do want to congratulate you, because you now have 45 schools and more than 9,000 students. That is exceptional in itself and you are bringing these communities together.

There is another idea I want to put to you. You said that Alberta was paying for half-day kindergarten and you have to cover the costs for the rest of the day. I think it is time to have a very important conversation about this with the province. It has to recognize that a large proportion of your students do not speak the language of the school when they start kindergarten. I imagine that is the case for about 80% of them. This puts them at a disadvantage right from the start. It is also why you need the province to pay for the other half-day.

Have you had any conversations with the province about this?

[Gisèle Bourque]

No, not to my knowledge.

What concerns us at the moment is mainly our secondary school curriculum. Our students are not remaining in our schools as much as we would like, so we are putting a lot of emphasis on infrastructure. This is a huge part of our conversations with the province, along with our secondary school curriculum.

I do take your comment on board, though.