Official Languages Committee on Nov. 19th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I will close by saying that, according to the Supreme Court of Canada decision that agreed with the Commission scolaire francophone des Territoires-du-Nord-Ouest, we have the right to accept. However, I am telling you that—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

—that the legislation comes under the provinces and not the federal government.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Samson, I'm going to turn off your microphone.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were listening to me.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We know how passionate you are, Mr. Samson. Thank you for the comments.

Everyone understands that I've extended the six minutes of speaking time by 15 seconds. I'm trying to be fair to everyone.

I now give the floor to the second vice-chair of this committee.

Mr. Beaulieu from the Bloc Québécois, you have six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Dorion, I don't know if you had finished your presentation. Do you want to finish it?

[Basile Dorion]

I had more to say because talking comes easily to me.

It is important to say that our French-language schools have three different clienteles. The first is made up of francophones who already speak French. Very often, they are a small minority in the school and they are lost in a predominantly anglophone world. The second clientele is exactly like my family members, my neighbours, my cousins and my brother: They are francophones who have lost their language for various reasons. In some cases, it's not their fault; in other cases, it's because they don't care.

The third clientele is made up of rights holders. Our school boards have admitted hundreds and hundreds of non-rights holders by creating rights holders. When an anglophone becomes a rights holder in school, their entire family automatically gains those rights, as do the generations that follow. It applies across generations. Two are initially accepted; there are four in the next generation; there will be eight in the generation after, and so on. The idea of the three clienteles is very important.

I'm concerned about the fact that children who already speak French when they start school are disadvantaged by the system. Our francophone school boards are too poor to take proactive measures and work with parents. They are so afraid of losing an anglophone parent that they bow down before them, and tough luck for the francophone parent, who has no other choice.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Isn't there a funding issue? Section 23 of the charter talks about minority language education rights where numbers warrant, but it doesn't specify what the numbers should be.

Rather than establishing a criterion that would enable schools by and for francophones to operate, even with fewer students, if necessary, that sort of requires them—

[Basile Dorion]

The funding provided by the federal and provincial governments should first be used to retain the francophones who are already there, rather than neglecting them completely. However, the criteria are always based on the number of students, and that has never benefited the francophone minority.

To have a French-language school, a lot of young anglophones or assimilated francophones who may have the right to be there are admitted. I don't have a problem with that. The problem is that the funding provided is based on the number of students and not on needs. Needs should take precedence, not the number of students.

Our school boards are forced to prostitute themselves in order to recruit enough students to obtain funding, as the funding provided makes it possible to create good jobs.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In your document, you talk a bit about the urgency of the situation.

Can you give us more examples that really show how urgent it is to change the way things are being done?

[Basile Dorion]

I always come back to the fact that it's the little francophone starting school who is neglected. The vast majority of the funding granted is directed to francization rather than to maintaining the francophonie. Therefore, the little francophone is neglected. They get to school and, if they want to have friends, they have to do what most students do and speak English. Otherwise, they are ostracized, made fun of, called “little Frenchy”, and so on. That's what happens in a French-language school. Imagine the challenge for teachers in a classroom where 23 out of 25 students do not understand French, in a French-language school.

The problem is huge.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That reminds me of the problem we have in Montreal schools, where francophones are in the minority.

We said earlier that the most recent action plan for official languages 2023–2028 included an increase in funding for immersion schools. Although immersion schools are a good thing, we're not talking about increasing funding for schools by and for francophones. According to some of the testimony we've heard, there are often no French-language schools nearby. So francophones go to an immersion school or elsewhere.

Shouldn't funding be directed more toward schools by and for francophones, or, at the very least, increased?

[Basile Dorion]

Access to education in French as a first language is a right. Access to a second language is a privilege. I do love the fact that a lot of anglophones want to learn French, but it shouldn't be at the expense of small francophone children who feel like strangers in their own school. That's what needs to change.

Teachers want to do the right thing. I'm thinking of a teacher in the York region. She complained on Facebook that her little girl couldn't make friends at school, a French-language school, because she was the only one in her class who spoke and understood French. This lady was contacted. She received a letter from her superintendent asking her to withdraw her comments if she did not want to risk disciplinary action.

Our teachers who stand up to defend French are ostracized. This lady called me crying one Friday night to tell me that she could no longer be associated with me because she was at risk of losing her job.

When I look for people to defend the cause of francophones, they are afraid to get involved, as they're afraid of the consequences their children might suffer at school. A lot of francophone parents are teachers. They're afraid to speak out. This unfortunate situation is happening within our French-language school boards.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Dorion and Mr. Beaulieu.

We'll move on to the last questions of this round.

I now give the floor to Mr. Boulerice, who is replacing Ms. Ashton, from the New Democratic Party.

Mr. Boulerice, you have six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank everyone for being here for this important study.

Before I ask my questions, I would like to make a comment.

Mr. Dorion, when you said that the term “students” had been replaced by “school population”, it sent a bit of a chill down my spine. I have to admit that I, too, saw the big dollar sign coming. I think we're losing the philosophy, the mission and the direction.

To the representatives of Canadian Parents for French, I want to say that it always warms my heart to see how many parents in English Canada want their child to learn French. I think that's a good sign. British Columbia is not the province with the largest number of people whose mother tongue or language used at home is French, but there is a huge demand for French courses and immersion schools. Some of my NDP colleagues in British Columbia tell me that some parents get up at 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. to go and line up, hoping to be able to find a place for their child in an immersion school so that they can take advantage of that opportunity. I was going to say “opportunité”, but we have to be careful not to anglicize the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

I would like to hear you talk about this movement. You provided some pretty telling figures. Why is this movement so important to the survival and preservation of the French language in Canada and to maintaining the spirit of bilingualism?

[Nicole Thibault]

I'll start.

I think it's important because those parents are our allies. I think we're seeing more and more of a change in our Canadian population. We have a lot of immigration. People arrive in Canada and immediately think that Canada is a bilingual country. To benefit from their experience and contribute to Canadian society, they want to be proficient in both official languages. From the outset, when they arrive in the country, they are ready to learn both languages. Immersion gives them that opportunity, since they are not necessarily rights holders. The majority of newcomers also need to be invested in, so that people understand that the opportunity to learn French and become bilingual is guaranteed.

That's what I've been concerned about for 20 years. Mr. Samson said that I have been working in the field for a long time. People who learn French through immersion have no guarantee that their child will have the same opportunity. Some children will have never learned French in Canada. From kindergarten to second grade, they can go to school in English and never learn French. I don't think that should be acceptable. All Canadians should reach a certain level of French.

There's a lot of talk about guarantees. Immersion education could be guaranteed for children whose parents received it. So if a student was guaranteed a place in an immersion school, they wouldn't take the place of a student in a francophone school. If more was invested in immersion schools, fewer people would try to go to francophone schools. The level of quality of education could be raised for them. Let's not have a competitive system; let's have a complementary system.

[Ahdithya Visweswaran]

I have nothing to add.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

We often get the impression that official languages are a zero-sum equation, where, when one wins, the other loses. I think the thinking should be that both communities can benefit from this. Right now, what I understand is that there is competition; clienteles are being stolen.

[Nicole Thibault]

Sometimes, a portion of the clientele is rejected.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

That's the case for the 7,000 students who were rejected in 10 years. That's huge.

[Nicole Thibault]

What's more, this figure applies to only one school board. I can give you the figures for 23 other school boards. I could fill 100,000 places in immersion tomorrow if they were available.

In British Columbia, it's a random draw. You can imagine a parent with twins. So one of the children could have access to immersion and the other could not. Is it acceptable for that parent to say they'll give that opportunity to one but not to the other? Yet, a parent has to make that choice in certain situations.

We are concerned about investments in teaching French to anglophones. If the quality of education were increased, there would be less competition. Two quality systems that teach French could be made available for the future of bilingualism in Canada.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

I don't have a lot of time, but I may be entitled to a second round of questions.

Mr. Visweswaran, you talked about your background and the opportunities that bilingualism can lead to in a career, such as promotions. I'd like you to expand on that. What possibilities and economic development opportunities can this bring to Canada? I'm thinking in particular of relations with Africa, which is now the continent with the most francophones on the planet. How do you see the additional arrow in the quiver of fluency in a second language?

[Ahdithya Visweswaran]

If I'm not mistaken, you just completed a study on the economic development of official language minority communities. We hear a great deal about the shortage of bilingual workers. Yet in the greater Toronto area, 7,000 people have been denied access to education in French as a second language. These 7,000 people could be working in French and contributing to both the francophonie and the delivery of French‑language services. They could teach French. Over 10 years, these 7,000 people have been denied the chance to promote and enrich the francophonie on a cultural, linguistic and economic level. That's a huge loss. If we want to invest in Canada's francophonie, we must also invest in education in French as a second language.