Official Languages Committee on Dec. 10th, 2024

[Christian Gagnon]

Unfortunately, I can't.

I hope the rest of the meeting goes well.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Before you go, Mr. Gagnon, if you have any additional information that you didn't get a chance to share with us, please send it to our clerk. She will pass it on to all members of the committee.

Thank you very much for your time.

[Christian Gagnon]

I will be submitting a brief to you next year.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a comment and a question are for the Fédération nationale des conseils scolaires francophones.

I see that the funding you receive for your general operations has not been increased in several years. I'm rounding off the numbers here, but according to the enumeration done after the 2021 census, the number of students is 180,000 out of a possible 580,000.

Don't you think there should be an envelope dedicated to catching up and bolstering French outside Quebec and English in Quebec, so that francophone minorities have the tools they need to at least attempt to get to the same level? We know that we won't get there completely.

I'd like to hear your opinion on that, Mr. Cloutier.

[Simon Cloutier]

Obviously, this is important. If we look at the previous envelope, we can see that we managed to obtain a small increase. For example, 15 years ago, we were at 56¢ on the dollar and we are now at 67¢ on the dollar. Given the inflation of recent years and the increase in the number of employees, we're probably already back to 56¢ on the dollar. When the agreement expires, we will be getting even less. Our funding does indeed need to be massively increased.

You mentioned the census. This is important for us, because funding for francophone schools is constantly declining.

It's a vicious cycle. Because we don't have a lot of students, we don't have a lot of funding, we don't have a lot of infrastructure. However, because we don't have that, we don't have the rest. It is therefore important to be proactive in the area of francophone education. Estimating the number of francophones through an enumeration process is extremely important.

In fact, the act says “estimated,” but for a statistician, it's still an estimate. Therefore, it is important to make an estimate using an enumeration process. This allows us to monitor population changes and to call for more schools, more funding and more investment to ensure that we identify all rights holders across the country and meet their needs.

I was saying earlier that there are places that don't have schools. If we don't know that there isn't a school in a certain place and if we don't know that there are enough francophones for there to be one, the enumeration can tell us that. That's why this enumeration is so important.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Now I'm going to ask you the killer question. We know that we'll never reach 100% of rights holders having access to education in the minority language, but if we set a target of 60% or 75%, how many years and how much money would it take to get there?

[Simon Cloutier]

That's a great question. I can't give you any figures right now, but we could look into it and send you an answer in writing after the meeting.

Given that currently one third of all francophone rights holders are enrolled in a francophone school, if we calculated the funding for all francophone schools and doubled it, we would probably arrive at a proportion of two thirds. That's a pretty easy calculation.

However, I think it's also important to point out that the federal government has a crucial role to play. From what I understand, and contrary to what was mentioned a little earlier, federal funding to support education in the minority language is set out by the federal government through the envelope of the action plan for official languages. The provinces and territories then negotiate with the federal government to obtain their share of the funding. The federal government therefore has an extremely important role to play. It's not the other way around. That's why we believe that, if the federal government wants to meet its obligations to francophones, it must increase its funding and, at the very least, inform us and give us a seat at the negotiating table.

Sometimes consultations are information sessions rather than actual consultations. It's all well and good to sit in a room and tick off boxes, but at the end of the day, if what is said doesn't count and if the decisions have already been made, it will be difficult to make any progress. We are therefore asking for real consultations.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

My next question may be utopian, but let's allow ourselves to dream, Mr. Cloutier.

Could there be an exception? Could the federal government set aside a funding envelope so that minority language education can catch up, all the while respecting provincial and territorial jurisdictional areas?

[Simon Cloutier]

Absolutely. That would be a great place to start. The federal government has a major role to play in promoting bilingualism in the country, and there's a lot of catching up to do. If the federal government decides to walk the talk, as we like to say where I come from, the provinces will follow suit. It's important for the federal government to exert a positive influence. Obviously, having a dedicated envelope for catching up would allow us to do that.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That is the federal government's responsibility.

Mr. Cloutier, in closing, I just want to tell you that I'm very optimistic about the future of francophones in Canada and anglophones in Quebec. We can maintain official languages and reposition ourselves because of the demand which is high, and that in itself is positive. However, for that to happen, you have to be given the necessary tools to enable you to meet that demand.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin. For the next five minutes, I'm going to use some of Mr. Lightbound's time and I'm going to share it with Mr. Samson.

Mr. Cloutier, my first question is related to Mr. Dalton's question that I cut short. Mr. Dalton spoke of agreement signatories and consultation. You also talked a lot about consultation.

In fact, Mr. Samson's wife told me that he consults her often, but that he doesn't necessarily listen to her answers.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

All kidding aside, we know that successive governments do a lot of consulting, but they don't necessarily listen to the answers. Consultations are held on form, not on substance.

Do you think school boards would be consulted differently if they were signatories to funding agreements?

[Simon Cloutier]

I think that's a critical factor. If the school boards were signatories, they would have to be consulted or they wouldn't sign anything. That would solve the problem.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Yetman, what do you think?

[Heidi Yetman]

I want to back up a bit. The federal government plays an important role in education, period. We are going through a crisis in Canada right now. Of course, the federal government's role in official languages is very important, but the federal government also plays a role in health. In education, we all have the same problems everywhere in Canada, whether in the minority or majority language. The federal government certainly has a role to play.

We recently conducted a survey with Abacus Data to find out what Canadians think about education. They found that education is viewed as being incredibly important. It plays a foundational role in a society—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I have to interrupt you, because I want to have time to ask you questions, after which I will give the floor to Mr. Samson.

At the beginning, you talked about the teacher shortage, which we've also spoken about at length here. That's the biggest problem when it comes to education. A ship without a rudder or an engine serves no purpose. Even if we have the best education system in the world, if there are no teachers, it doesn't work.

For the past two Septembers, we've been hearing discouraging statistics. In Quebec alone, last year, two weeks before Parliament resumed, there was a shortage of 10,000 to 12,000 teachers. This year, Quebec was short between 5,000 and 7,000 teachers, and the same is true for all the other provinces.

Is it really due to a lack of spots in our universities to train teachers, or is it a lack of interest because the profession is starting to lose its appeal? Is it a combination of both?

[Heidi Yetman]

The main reason is the lack of appeal, as you just said.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay.

Ms. Morand, do you have anything to add?

[Valérie Morand]

I completely agree with Ms. Yetman, but I must add that paid practicums are also important for our graduates. We have to give them optimal conditions by offering fairly long and paid practicums.

There also seems to be a disconnect between the training students receive at university and the reality they face on the ground. We need to support them better, so that their transition to the workplace is successful and the employer and the new employee both come out as winners.

These are things we will have to look at to support students in the education continuum, both in terms of training and the transition into the workplace.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much.

Ms. Yetman, earlier you said that we were losing francophone schools in rural Canada outside Quebec. This is concerning. Do you have any data to share with us on that?

[Heidi Yetman]

I don't know if we have any data, but we regularly discuss things with all our members in the francophone network. We can check to see if there is any data.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for one minute.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. I think you've taken up a lot of time, Mr. Chair.

I think we can conclude that we don't have the number of students or the infrastructure we should have, and those two responsibilities fall to the provinces. Section 23, as you said, didn't take into account all those challenges at the time. I wonder if there shouldn't be an additional envelope, a catch-up envelope, so to speak, to help the provinces make the necessary investments. They are the ones who decide whether they want to build a school and whether that school will be French or English. We're constantly competing, and we're losing every time.

As was said earlier, the provinces don't distribute the funding equally. Perhaps something can be done about that. There's no question that we need to find a way to put pressure on the provinces to come to the table and discuss these issues with the federal government. Together, they can probably find a solution.