Official Languages Committee on March 30th, 2022

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good afternoon, Commissioner.

Thank you for being with us today.

The assimilation or language transfer rate of allophones outside Quebec is nearly 100%. It's 99%.

Some people, such as Charles Castonguay, claim that the rate of language transfer toward English for both foreign immigrants and Quebeckers who settle in other provinces is very high. Successfully attracting francophone immigrants is somewhat like trying to fill a bucket with a hole in the bottom.

What do you think?

[Raymond Théberge]

We won't change demographic outcomes if we don't do something different or use different means.

When we say francophone immigration, we don't just mean recruitment; we also integration and retention.

Integration means we have to ensure that people have access to jobs, housing and education in the minority language.

If we fail to establish those kinds of programs and tools enabling us to take in and integrate francophone immigrants, they may join the majority or even move to other regions of the country. That has often occurred.

To ensure we retain francophone immigrants, we must be able to provide strong support so they don't leave one region for another. For example, someone might leave New Brunswick to settle in Quebec or vice versa. That's what will happen if we do nothing.

I think we can establish robust programs that will produce results.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Many studies show that newcomers must settle in regions where there's a francophone mass in order to integrate. Then they'll tend to integrate in French.

In the present circumstances, would it be preferable to target regions such as the Acadian peninsula or regions where there's a francophone mass? That would help integrate and retain immigrants.

[Raymond Théberge]

I've observed the diversity of francophone communities outside Quebec and across the country for some years now.

In Manitoba, for example, they now call it the Société de la francophonie manitobaine instead of the Société franco-manitobaine.

We can see diversity in…

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You're not answering my question.

[Raymond Théberge]

What I'm telling you is that every community can take in immigrants.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In Quebec, the Canada-Quebec Accord, which allowed Quebec to select the immigrant worker class, for example, made it possible to select more francophone immigrants or immigrants from francotropic countries. That's why language transfers to French have increased to a certain degree. There had already been language transfers toward French. That continues in Quebec.

The percentage of francotropic immigrants has risen sharply since 2015 because people who have a temporary study permit or a temporary work permit come from migrant backgrounds.

Do you think it's also important to promote and increase francophone immigration to Quebec?

[Raymond Théberge]

The Quebec and federal governments negotiated an accord, and I believe Quebec's in a better position to determine its demographic needs. As far as I know, we take its opinion into account when setting the national immigration target.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We recently saw in the media that the refusal rate for study permit applications is approximately 80%, sometimes more, for students from certain countries that constitute francophone immigration pools. By that I mean certain African countries, particularly in North Africa, such as Algeria.

To file an application in Quebec, students must have confirmed their admission to a university-level francophone educational institution and have received a Quebec acceptance certificate. However, their study permit applications are subsequently denied. Quebec has no direct influence on this factor.

How do you explain these high rates of refusal of study permit applications submitted by students from francophone African countries?

How do you explain why the refusal rate is much higher for students who want to settle in Quebec or to study at a francophone university elsewhere in Canada?

The situation's really a problem.

What you think?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu. You may get an answer in the next round of questions.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Greetings to the Commissioner, who is back before our committee.

Once again, my first question concerns Africa.

Mr. Théberge, as you mentioned earlier and discussed in your report, you want to target certain recruitment pools, particularly in sub-Saharan Africa, where 68% of the world's French-language speakers live.

However, Carol Jolin told this committee during a previous study that it wasn't unusual for an applicant from sub-Saharan Africa to have to cross six countries to file an application. Moïse Zahoui also told us that there was a glaring lack of visa offices.

In light of that testimony, is the government doing enough to recruit francophone immigrants?

Should we change our approach to Africa?

Could increasing the number of visa offices be part of the solution?

[Raymond Théberge]

We have to do things differently if we want different results. I remember a time when the entire student visa review process was conducted in Dakar. Everyone had to travel to Dakar, which made matters difficult for a great many students.

If we want to target sub-Saharan Africa, which, once again, represents a potentially large pool, we have to acquire the necessary tools.

You mentioned the possibility of increasing the number of visa offices. I'm not an immigration expert, but I can tell you that, when you want to serve a clientele, it may be a good idea to move closer to it. That may be one way to view the matter.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you for that answer.

According to the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, or FCFA, we would need an 8% target, which you described as ambitious, to maintain the present demographic weight of francophones outside Quebec from now until 2036.

At the same time, immigrants from Africa encounter obstacles in the immigration process. You said Canada should establish a francophone immigration policy.

Should we adopt a differentiated approach to meet our targets, for example, by accepting more students, particularly from Africa?

[Raymond Théberge]

We've introduced the concept of substantive equality. The way to implement that concept is to establish differentiated programs to ensure that one community is able to join another at the same level. You need to use a differentiated approach to promote francophone immigration.

How will that be implemented? That's another story. However, there can be no doubt that what's being done now isn't working. Yes, it's ambitious to set a target of 8% because we've never even met the 4.4% target.

I think it's important to design different approaches to ensure we commit to substantive equality in immigration.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I'm going to address a topic that's related to what you just said and to other conversations we've had in the committee. We all know there's a labour shortage, particularly in education and early childhood.

To guarantee the adequate offer of service to francophones and francophiles, do you think it would be desirable for IRCC to give favourable treatment to skilled workers, which would help us provide more French-language services in the rest of Canada?

[Raymond Théberge]

Once again, what's important is that everyone sees there's a shortage of bilingual labour across the country. There's a glaring shortage of early childhood, education and health care workers.

Certain employment classes have been preferred in other fields. I think that's what should be done, if it meets a need.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Have you heard any comments from francophone immigrants about language tests?

We've seen in the committee that the difficulty of those tests is causing problems even for francophones who've spoken and worked in French all their lives. We've heard some quite troubling testimony on the subject.

Why do applicants fail? Given the testimony we've all heard, do you think the tests are too difficult or even poorly designed?

[Raymond Théberge]

We've heard several comments on the cost of the test, access to the test and the quality of the test.

We have to wonder whether the tests meet the needs of those who have to take them. I think that's a question we have to consider.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I'd like to thank you, Mr. Théberge. We're grateful for the importance you attach to francophone communities across Canada, such as those in Manitoba, which are perhaps not among the federal government's top priorities, but which deserve much more attention and support.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

Colleagues, before we begin the second round, I want to inform you that the entire technical team, including the interpreters, is prepared to do full two-hour blocks, despite the vote.

Does that suit the entire team? We have to devote an hour to our business, and it's important.

Do we have unanimous consent for a complete two-hour block?

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

In fact...

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have the floor, Mr. Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Chair, unfortunately, I have to leave at 5:55 p.m. because I have another engagement at 6 p.m. I want to contribute, but I don't want to stay after 5:55 p.m.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Are there any others who have to leave the meeting before 5:55 p.m.?

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

It's the same for me, Mr. Chair, I have the same engagement as Mr. Godin, at 6 p.m.