Official Languages Committee on April 4th, 2022

[Bernard Tremblay]

My answer is that, first, you have to notice and recognize the problem. You have to conduct a quick analysis of the various system elements to ensure it produces an acceptable result, by which I mean a rate of acceptance and a rate of access to permanent residence comparable to those in the rest of Canada.

I think that's really what we're demanding, as well as a degree of transparency in the process.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

All right. Thanks very much.

I finished just in time, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thanks very much, Mr. Drouin.

You are very disciplined.

The next speaker is our second vice-chair, Mr. Beaulieu.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for you, Ms. Meggs.

I read an article that you wrote in which you said that there has been a dramatic increase in temporary migration. The number of people admitted to Quebec with a study or temporary worker permit has soared. The Canadian government has made what you called a precipitous change to a two-step temporary and permanent immigration system.

Don't you think that change undermines the Canada–Quebec Accord Relating to Immigration and Temporary Admission of Aliens, which Quebec secured?

[Anne Meggs]

I previously wrote that it was time for us to review the accord in the context of that change.

With respect to the temporary immigrant issue, we at least have a whole program, the international mobility program, which is not at all considered in the accord, as it was created after the accord was signed. However it's the second most important program after the study permits. So something should be done in that regard.

The particular issue with this two-step change, apart from the many aspects relating to the accord, is that some of the factors that determine the language a person will use once in Canada appear before that person arrives. However, someone who doesn't speak French on arrival has to be immersed in the French language and culture in short order.

In the case of temporary immigrants, there's no selection by recruitment pool, for example. They can't be recruited in countries whose culture has some affinity with French. There's no selection at all. As I said, there are no language requirements. Consequently, if they enrol in English study programs or work in English—which is entirely possible, even in Quebec—it can take five or six years when they file an application for permanent residence.

However, that's where the accord comes into play. If they apply through the Quebec experience program, they're required to demonstrate their knowledge of French, but I believe many of you around this table understand that passing a test in a second language doesn't mean you'll adopt it at home and use it in public.

Consequently, this change is creating specific problems for the type of francophone immigration we're discussing today.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You also said the Canada-Quebec Accord provided that Quebec could give its consent to admit foreign students. Currently, students are accepted to an accredited program at a CEGEP or university by Quebec's Ministère de l'Immigration and then obtain a Quebec Acceptance Certificate from the Ministère de l'Immigration, de la Francisation et de l'Intégration. Their applications are then refused in huge numbers, as we've seen, particularly in the tables that Mr. Tremblay's has provided us.

You said the federal government shouldn't deny study permits. Do you think it's possible to introduce a procedure under which Quebec can determine that the Quebec Acceptance Certificate is definitive?

[Anne Meggs]

There's a minor distinction under the Accord between a permanent and a temporary immigrant. In the former case, when a person receives a Quebec Selection Certificate, a QSC, it is very clear that he or she has applied for permanent residence first in Quebec, that Quebec has selected that person and that the federal government is required to offer permanent residence following security and health checks.

The vocabulary is slightly different for temporary immigrants. They're required to give their consent, and that has given rise to the Quebec Acceptance Certificate, the QAC. However, what would be ideal, at least from Quebec's standpoint—it might not work in Canada—would be for the same rule to apply to both QACs and QSCs, in other words, for the study permit to follow when an individual has received a Quebec Acceptance Certificate. However, that's not currently the case.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That would be ideal.

My other question is for Mr. Tremblay.

Earlier you said we shouldn't rob Peter to pay Paul. Bill C-13 actually provides that francophone immigration outside Quebec should be promoted.

Do you think we should say "in and outside Quebec"?

[Bernard Tremblay]

We're entirely aware of the issues pertaining to the broader francophone community outside Quebec, but I believe we want to take a comprehensive approach. We must always bear in mind the impact that choices made have on Quebec, and vice versa, in order to ensure that the Canadian francophonie remains vibrant across the country.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

The next speaker, who will also have six minutes, is Niki Ashton.

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses.

Thank you for your testimony today, your quite disturbing testimony.

We're well aware of the problems associated with francophone immigration outside Quebec, the labour shortages in the francophone community and in our francophone education centres, but it's truly disturbing to hear about the students you're trying to admit to francophone CEGEPs in Quebec.

Ms. Meggs, you briefly discussed processing systems. How do you think the results that were achieved before the current system was introduced compare with those we're getting now?

[Anne Meggs]

I'm somewhat less familiar with the changes at the federal level.

Like everyone else, I started to see that the problems were getting bigger. Mr. Tremblay told us that had already been the case previously.

That obviously raises questions. We don't want to accuse anyone of being prejudiced, but the arguments used to deny study permits to francophones and Africans don't seem to be applied as rigorously to students from other backgrounds. I'm thinking of Indians, for example.

There have been a lot of problems in Quebec with young Indian students in their private colleges. There have been some terrible stories. Those students were taken advantage of. Yesterday, the Toronto Star also began publishing a whole dossier on how they were treated as cheap labour; they were manipulated and controlled by their employers, who knew the students weren't planning to study, but rather to immigrate. I think that's the issue we should really be debating. Are we trying to recruit large numbers of students solely for the $21 billion they spend and for the cheap labour they provide to the hotel industry? It's terrible, and it's all done to meet immigration thresholds.

The federal government decided it had to raise the permanent immigration thresholds and opened the floodgates to temporary immigration. The problem is serious for both young students and workers; they don't have the same rights, and they get manipulated because employers have that leverage.

The first reason, that we aren't convinced they'll leave the country after their studies, makes no sense because we're making every effort to keep them here. The second reason is that they don't have adequate financial resources. However, according to the articles in the Toronto Star, the poor students have a right to work 20 hours a week during the session. That isn't enough for Indian students, in particular, or for others. So what do they do? They work illegally, which gives employers even more leverage; they can criticize them for working under the table, whereas they want to become permanent residents. Those students work for less than minimum wage

There's never been a debate in Quebec or Canada on the use of temporary immigration as opposed to recruiting immigrants directly from abroad and granting them permanent residence on arrival. Quebec has followed Canada in making that change, but there has to be a debate. It's not necessarily a good thing for the people arriving.

It may be good for our economy and for employers, but it leaves a lot to be desired for people who arrive and don't have the same reception services as permanent residents.

I've been writing about that for three years, and I think it's really sad.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Of course, as you said, it really contributes to the decline of French when we fail to accept the people we should accept, who speak French, doesn't it?

I see my time is nearly up. Mr. Tremblay, I wanted to talk to you about the experience of anglophone CEGEPs. Do they have the same kind of trouble recruiting international students? Are the problems francophone CEGEPs experience specific to francophone students?

[Bernard Tremblay]

Yes, I think we should nevertheless focus on attracting international francophone students.

I understand Ms. Meggs' concerns and her desire for a debate, but I'd nevertheless focus on the fact that, in Quebec, the CEGEPs provide students with enormous support. Furthermore, the students we recruit are students bound for the regions, on paths that need labour. We integrate them through a long process, if you consider the DEC, which is a three-year college diploma. That's what were looking for.

Consequently, we really make an effort to integrate these students, not by putting them through the short training programs that can be found in other places.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay and Ms. Ashton.

The second round of questions will begin with Mr. Lehoux.

Mr. Lehoux, you have five minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for being with us this afternoon.

My question is for Mr. Tremblay.

You mentioned that you didn't entirely agree with Ms. Meggs on the possibility of having a debate, but I found her proposal interesting. We even have a fairly big problem in the regions. Back home in Beauce, our CEGEP has three college branches, and we have a retention problem.

I understand that we haven't had a debate on the fact that we're asking them to come and study but that we allow them to work only 20 hours a week or else we tell them they didn't come to Canada for the right reasons.

I know a lot of young people who are capable of working properly for more than 20 hours a week and others whom a little work wouldn't hurt.

What's your view on that, Mr. Tremblay?

[Bernard Tremblay]

Thank you because you're letting me clarify my remarks.

I obviously wouldn't want to contradict Ms. Meggs or her idea of holding a debate. I mainly wanted to emphasize the fact that our priority in Quebec's CEGEPs is to offer students from elsewhere in the world an opportunity to follow a three-year pathway to a college diploma, a DEC.

It's a process in which there's real support and a genuine which to integrate the students. By the time they've earned their diplomas, these students have put down roots in the community and already have experience that helps them integrate into the region, where they've studied. As you know, there's always a discrepancy between the major centres and the regions. We think we have the key to providing an opportunity to more international students. They arrive directly in Matane, Sept-Îles and Trois-Rivières with the hope that, after three years of training experience, they'll want to stay in that region with, in their back pocket, a diploma that they earned at one of our institutions and that is recognized in Canada.

There can obviously be shorter paths, what we call attestations of college studies, but the focus is currently on training…

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

I don't mean to interrupt, Mr. Tremblay, but where do you think the problem lies?

Ultimately, these students want nothing more than to integrate. I know some in my area; they want fit in. Shouldn't we change the regulations prohibiting them from working more than 20 hours a week? When they work on weekends, for example, they can integrate into the communities.

[Bernard Tremblay]

That's definitely something we could consider. I can tell you that 20 hours of work is ultimately a lot for a full-time student.

I'd tend to say that's not the biggest problem for us right now. We're really more concerned about this barrier on arrival that's associated with obtaining the study permit. That's why I emphasize this aspect. The countries most likely to…

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Tremblay, I've seen it. I spoke with the management of the CEGEP back home, and we really don't understand why everything takes so long for why there's an 80% refusal rate.

I don't know whether you have any recommendations that we could include in the report, but I think we've put our finger on the problem, and we have to find a solution. What's happening now is inconceivable.

[Bernard Tremblay]

Definitely. Once again, I'd say we need the officers who process the files to know more about Quebec's education system. They have to have a clear understanding that a student who has university training could very well wish to get college training, that it isn't a step backward in his or her training, but rather a justifiable addition to it. That's extremely sought after in certain African countries. So one of the keys is better knowledge of the education system. We also have to ensure that, beyond Quebec's education system, we're aware that a special effort has to be made for the francophonie, since the results prove that these young people are…

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Here's a question in closing. My time is nearly up, Mr. Tremblay. I'd like you to give us some ideas for retaining these young people. This is important and it's a delicate matter.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Lehoux.

The next questions will be asked by Ms. Kayabaga, who has five minutes.

Ms. Kayabaga, the floor is yours.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today.

I'll begin with a question for Mr. Tremblay.

You said that 40% of your students come from France and 30% from elsewhere. I really wonder what you think about the fact that the largest francophone pool is in Africa and that it's the place where we have the highest refusal rate.

At your institution, 40% of francophones come from France. What do you think about extending your recruitment to include the largest francophone pool in the world?

[Bernard Tremblay]

I absolutely agree. We would clearly like to have many more students from Africa. We're making considerable efforts to connect with francophone African countries. That's why we feel somewhat frustrated when we sense that those efforts will result in study permits being denied. We think that's inexplicable, and we would definitely like to increase the percentage of African students.