Official Languages Committee on April 4th, 2022

[Anne Meggs]

Ideally, we should be able to recruit immigrants directly from abroad to find people who already speak French. The problem is that, with temporary immigration, people arrive here, begin their studies in English or another language and work in English. It's unreasonable to think they'll change and adopt French at home to ensure French survives. The francophone immigration program must apply across the country; we have to start including language requirements in applications for temporary stay permits, for both studies and work. We should have temporary language requirements so we can have francophones once they become permanent residents.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

In connection with that, many people recommend a restorative target, a much higher target than 4.4%. Do you think we should raise the target in order really to restore the demographic weight of the broader francophone community?

[Anne Meggs]

I spent the final years of my career working in accountability. I never encountered a situation in which increasing a target that could not previously be met changed anything. In regionalization, in Quebec, since they had only reached 15%, the decision was made to raise the target to 25%. However, they can't manage to hit 20%. If you change nothing else, raising the target will only…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Meggs. I apologize, but you can come back to this.

We will have to suspend later to prepare for the second part of the meeting.

The next two questions will be asked by Mr. Godin and Ms. Lattanzio, who respectively have two and a half minutes.

Mr. Godin, first vice-chair, you have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Meggs, I find your philosophy interesting. You say we should stop raising targets when we can't reach the first one. That's not a solution, but we have to find some in order to achieve our objectives.

My colleague Ms. Ashton said there was some catching up to do in immigration. We've been missing our targets for a long time.

What do you think would be a realistic objective, not for the regular targets, but in order to catch up? In how many years could we rectify the situation and prevent the constant decline?

[Anne Meggs]

I think the restorative exercise will be difficult. I don't know exactly what you want to restore or what targets would be acceptable to you. If old stock francophones outside Quebec, and even in Quebec, start adopting English, then I think it's magical thinking to believe that we can bring people in here and they'll do the same thing as native Canadians. It's difficult.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I understand you, Ms. Meggs.

I'm interrupting because I have another question and my time is very limited.

You discussed the computer system. We're seeing an increase in refusals in francophone immigration, especially from the African continent. Earlier Mr. Tremblay said the situation was the same before the new computer system was introduced.

Can you tell us whether the same rules and criteria were transferred to the new computer system and whether the computerization phenomenon exacerbated the existing problems?

[Anne Meggs]

Yes, definitely. We often hear about algorithms that have an unrecognized bias.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you.

Ms. Meggs, it seems to me you said in your remarks that Canada didn't want to retain its immigrants, but that Quebec did. There's a paradox there. You discussed an update to the Canada-Quebec Accord relating to Immigration and Temporary Admission of Aliens. That's a very important point because now we're headed in the opposite direction. Given the current labour shortage, I think this is a good opportunity to bring in immigrants to study or work and to keep them here.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin. I'm sorry; I have to do my job as chair.

Ms. Lattanzio, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My questions are for Mr. Tremblay.

You said at the outset that the Fédération des cégeps represents 195,000 students. I imagine that number is spread over the 48 CEGEPs. Would you please break it down and tell us how many students are studying at the 43 francophone CEGEPs and how many at the 5 anglophone CEGEPs?

[Bernard Tremblay]

When you talk about CEGEPs in Quebec, you're referring to public colleges. There are 48 CEGEPs, 43 francophone and 5 anglophone. Approximately 30,000 students attend the anglophone CEGEPs. You can immediately see the proportions. The numbers are obviously spread across all of Quebec. I also mentioned 7,000 international students. So, as you can see, there are very few of them, and we would like to admit many more.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Would you please tell us more?

[Bernard Tremblay]

In fact, with 7,000 international students out of 200,000 students, you can understand why we take care of our international students. That's what I was referring to. That's it.

[Patricia Lattanzio, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Since we're about to run out of time, I'll ask you questions and ask you to answer me in writing if you can't manage to answer me now. I know the chair will interrupt us.

What role do the CEGEPs in your federation play in the francization of immigrants? Could you explain the steps in that process to us?

What do you think are the main obstacles to the francization of immigrants in Quebec?

[Bernard Tremblay]

Those are big questions. I just noticed that I have only a minute left. I'll have to finish providing this information later.

It's true that CEGEPs play a role in francization and I'm going to concentrate on international students, most of whom have a good knowledge of French. If French is not their mother tongue, they are nevertheless mentored throughout the process to facilitate their learning of French. There are also francization services, under an agreement with Quebec's department of immigration, francization and integration.

I'd be happy to provide further details about these services in writing.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Tremblay and Ms. Lattanzio. That's all the time we have.

Before we suspend the meeting, I'd like to thank the witnesses.

Thank you, Ms. Meggs and Mr. Tremblay, for having told us about your experience so energetically. Your testimony will definitely be very useful to us as we write our report.

I'd like to go back to what Ms. Lattanzio said. If you think you were a little short of time and believe that there is other useful information we should have, please don't hesitate to send it in writing to our clerk. Providing us with written testimony is considered evidence just as much as a spoken presentation. Any subsequent information is welcome.

So I'm going to suspend the meeting to allow the first group of witnesses to leave and for the next group of witnesses to join us for the second hour.

Thank you all very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We are now reconvening the meeting.

I would now like to welcome our second group of witnesses. We have some special visitors with us today. In the second hour of the meeting today, we are welcoming, from the Fédération de la jeunesse franco-ontarienne, Ms. Jacqueline Djiemeni, Representative for the Greater Toronto Board of Representatives, and Mr. Boni Guy-Roland Kadio, Liaison and Political Analysis Coordinator. From the Francophone Immigration Support Network of Eastern Ontario, Ms. Brigitte Duguay-Langlais, Coordinator, and from the University of Sudbury, Dr. Serge Miville, President and Vice-Chancellor.

You each have five minutes for your presentation. I will let you know when there is a minute left, and again at 15 seconds. There will then be around of questions during which each member of the committee can discuss things with you.

We'll start with Ms. Djiemeni, for five minutes.

You have the floor, Ms. Djiemeni.

[Jacqueline Djiemeni, Representative for the Greater Toronto, Board of Representatives, Fédération de la jeunesse franco-ontarienne]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, committee members, thank you for having invited me to appear in connection with your study on francophone immigration in Canada and Quebec.

My name is Jacqueline Djiemeni Ngangoum, a grade 11 student at^x Ronald-Marion high school. I'm from Cameroon and I immigrated to Canada two years and a few months ago.

As you know, Canada never met its 4.4% target for francophone immigration outside Quebec, and has failed to do so every year since 2008. And the most recent report from the Commissioner of Official Languages says it's unlikely the target will be met by the expected 2023 deadline.

And yet, francophone immigration is essential to maintaining the demographic weight of the French-speaking population outside Quebec, and the development and vitality of francophone communities. It's also essential for educational institutions, which in many instances rely on francophone newcomers to maintain their critical mass.

That being the context, I would encourage members of the committee to give consideration to the following recommendations.

The first pertains to immigrant awareness of the realities of the host community, before and after their integration.

The second is about building capacity in minority community francophone schools so that they can become catalysts for integration in these communities.

It's important for young immigrants to understand the realities of their host communities ahead of time so that they are better prepared both mentally and financially, and better informed about the lifestyle and potential challenges and opportunities in these communities. That would help them from the moment they arrive to adapt to their host country more readily and stress-free, because they will have been informed prior to arriving in Canada.

So first of all, an awareness of the lifestyle in the host society is important. Then, a knowledge of the languages spoken in the host city and country. Lastly, it's important to know how the school system works.

Schools can promote socialization and play an important role in welcoming and integrating new francophone students. For this to happen, it's important for immigrants to have been properly received and integrated into the educational setting from the start. Not everyone is capable of expressing themselves easily or obtaining information about the new realities of the country and the school. So if a school is welcoming to students, it can play a key role in their educational and social integration.

To make a school welcoming to young immigrants, all staff at the school—including students, teachers and administration—must be collaborative, welcoming and enthusiastic. Teachers also have to be able to understand that immigrant students do not necessarily have the same educational background.

Being a member of a francophone youth organization is important in several respects. It certainly strengthened my identity, my pride in being francophone and my own role in the community, as it has for many others too. It also helps you to contribute to the development of your community, to learn and enhance your skills, including social skills, and to learn in French. My experience at the Fédération de la jeunesse franco-ontarienne, FESFO, is a good example of just that.

FESFO provides life experience in French beyond the school, and it enabled me to acquire new skills, organizational ability, critical thinking and leadership. It also introduced me to new people and enhanced my intellectual knowledge.

That concludes my opening address, Mr. Chair. I'd be happy to answer any questions the committee members may have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Djiemeni Ngangoum, and well done, because you've still got a minute of speaking time left.

We will now move on to Ms. Brigitte Duguay-Langlais.

Ms. Duguay-Langlais, you have five minutes.

[Brigitte Duguay-Langlais, Coordinator, Francophone Immigration Support Network of Eastern Ontario]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Chair, members of the Standing Committee on Official Languages, good afternoon. Thank you for having me here today.

As the Coordinator of the Francophone Immigration Support Network of Eastern Ontario for almost eight years now, I'd like to give you a brief explanation of what the network is all about.

The network, which has been funded by the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada for the past 15 years, is a program managed and coordinated by the Economic and Social Council of Ottawa-Carleton, more generally called the CESOC. It is coordinated as an indirect service institution, and does not provide direct services to francophone immigrants, but rather works to build capacity among the key immigration players, and to raise awareness among host communities. We work with just over 75 eastern Ontario organizations and institutions.

I'll get straight to the point today to convince you that francophone immigration is a key factor in the development and vitality of our francophone minority communities. We all understand and believe that. Over the years, we've been able to the federal government's growing determination to promote welcoming, integrating and retaining francophone immigrants in Canada, but the means to get there have not been optimized and we still have a long way to go.

I'd like to tell you today about certain shortcomings, and some solutions. First of all, the government apparatus needs to understand that francophone immigration is not only a sector in Canada's social fabric. The federal government can't be held wholly responsible for meeting the Department of Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada's targets. Francophone immigration is an integration process, and hence it cuts across the entire structure of government, and each department needs to be, accountable in making the process successful and meeting the francophone immigration target.

I am therefore suggesting that IRCC coordinate an interdepartmental initiative whose mission will be to make all federal government departments, and the provincial and territorial governments, aware of and accountable for francophone immigration, for the process and for meeting the target.

I'd also like to address the regionalization of francophone immigration. You are no doubt aware of the fact that the most active and largest francophone communities in Ontario are often in rural and semi-rural settings, or in Ontario's far north. Many studies have shown that these communities are demographically, and hence economically, shrinking, because of the desperate labour shortages in these communities. In fact just this morning, the FCFA requested a new progressive francophone immigration target from the federal government, one that would increase from 4.2% to 12% by 2024, which demonstrates the urgency of the situation.

Newcomers all too often arrive in major centres like Toronto and Ottawa. The northern communities and smaller communities surrounding major cities are not well-known enough or considered desired locations. Francophone newcomers have often said that they learned far too late about the existence of French-speaking communities in Ontario, and about the quality francophone education available. When they arrived, they had to make snap decisions that would affect the remainder of the process: school for their children, place of residence, employment, etc. They really have to be able to make well-informed decisions and to be familiar with the opportunities in francophone communities before they arrive, or at least very soon after coming to Canada.

Francophone community organizations need to be able to organize missions abroad to promote our francophone communities and their advantages; it's important for non-francophone institutions to recommend French-language services to their clients wherever possible, or at least to promote francophone schools, communities and jobs.

In concluding, I can't fail to mention the housing crisis in Canada. It is literally jeopardizing the success of many fine initiatives that were introduced to promote the integration and retention of new residents in our communities. I am thinking, for example, of the Welcoming Francophone Communities initiative in Hawkesbury, Hamilton and Sudbury, or the introduction of a second francophone support program for the resettlement of refugees in Cornwall. These are excellent IRCC initiatives, for which we are grateful, moreover, but which will never succeed as they should until the affordable housing crisis has been dealt with.

This is a perfect example of IRCC efforts that could be jeopardized unless other departments work with them to make them successful. When we talk about housing in connection with immigration, we are speaking more specifically about affordable housing. Canada's financial system is not really very helpful to these people. They have very limited resources. For example, they have no credit history in Canada…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Duguay-Langlais.

You'll be able to answer any questions that arise as we continue.

Dr. Miville, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Dr. Serge Miville, President and Vice-Chancellor, University of Sudbury]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking the Standing Committee on Official Languages for the privilege of appearing here today to discuss the important issue of francophone immigration in Canada and Quebec.

I'd like to talk about three points today in my presentation. I'll begin with a review of the social function of French- language universities in minority communities. The second will address the importance of immigration for linguistic vitality in mid-northern Ontario. I will conclude with a discussion of the challenges facing French-language regional universities as they attempt to achieve their full potential, not only in terms of attracting, but also retaining, international students.

Historically, French-speaking Ontario has been perceived as a national minority or a small society. The premise at the outset is that it is an agent of its own history, an autonomous political entity capable of acting as a hub for societal integration.

A university, in addition to being a force for social, cultural and economic development, also performs a role as a medium for integration and a place for critical thinking, bringing the society in which it is located into the broader world. It means that francophone Ontario can conduct societal debates based on the franco-Ontarian societal fact. To paraphrase sociologist Joseph Yvon Thériault, while society creates the university, the university makes it possible to create society. Hence the existential importance of these institutions in francophone minority communities.

Sudbury's francophone community desperately needs immigrants to maintain its linguistic and cultural vitality and to meet the challenges of labour shortages. the Northern Policy Institute estimates "that between 46 per cent and 64 per cent of all new in-migrants should be Francophone...in Greater Sudbury" (28.2%).

But only 11 out of every 1,000 residents were born outside the region. That's one of the lowest levels in the country.

Because of its role, the university community attracts migratory populations. Regional French-language universities therefore become an essential factor that can contribute to linguistic vitality because of its inclusive social role and its ability to offset labour shortfalls.

Some systemic issues reduce the institutions' capacity to achieve their full potential. The visa issues pointed out by our colleagues, including those at the Université de l'Ontario français, are a reality. Throughout its history, Canada has always, through formal or informal mechanisms, limited access to French-language immigration. I believe we are paying the price for that today.

Reversing the trend will require major investments in university institutions, in reinventing settlement mechanisms, and in the country's migratory policies.

Postsecondary institutions can be instrumental in attracting, retaining and integrating immigrant populations in minority communities. In Ontario's mid-north, universities have unfortunately not done very well in attracting and retaining international francophone students, particularly in comparison to the successful efforts of other institutions like Hearst University.

Many of its students come from abroad. Many decide to stay. That contributes enormously to franco-Ontarian renewal and vitality in that region. Welcoming and mentoring international students plays a huge role in regions like Sudbury, and the needs are critical.

But we lack the resources. For example, the province does not provide grants for international students, which leads to a capacity imbalance between urban and regional institutions. Some are able to waive tuition fees, a difficult practice to implement to the same extent in the regions because of the high cost of education.

And yet, the immigration needs in the northern region are proportionately much greater. Because of the lack of a consistent strategy and resources, our regional French-language university institutions are simply unable to provide the services that would attract and retain the immigrant population needed to preserve and promote the linguistic, cultural and economic vitality of the French language in areas like the mid-north.

Those are the challenges we face.

Thank you most sincerely.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Dr. Miville.

We will now begin a second round of questions with each of the political parties. Each MP will have six minutes.

Will begin with the first vice-chair of the Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Mr. Joël Godin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank the three witnesses, Ms. Djiemeni, Ms. Duguay-Langlais and Dr. Miville.

Let's get straight to the heart of the matter and begin with the testimony from the representative of the Fédération de la jeunesse franco-ontarienne, Ms. Djiemeni.

You spoke about the fact that we needed to improve the integration, welcoming, and the means available to us to treat our immigrants well. Beyond that, Ms. Djiemeni, can you tell us a little about the current situation and why francophone immigration is a problem?