Official Languages Committee on April 6th, 2022

[Mohamadou Sarr]

Usually, it's because of the financial evidence they need to supply. Normally, for the first study permit application, it's often the consulate that does the checking. Quebec often accepts the application, but then finds itself in the black box. If we were at least told that it was a money problem, then we would know that the financial evidence was inadequate.

Just recently, a few weeks ago, I saw a student who had his year of tuition fees paid by the Student Direct Stream, which deposited the amount he requested in trust at the Desjardins Caisse Populaire, and allowed a month for the application to be processed. He too was refused, even though the funds were already here. That's the crazy sort of stuff we're encountering.

But it's still possible to acquire more interns, if only to decrease the risks. A relatively interesting measure was introduced not long ago, allowing universities to have interns for up to 120 days. That doesn't require a work permit. It's a helpful measure that gives universities and companies an opportunity to test people to see if they might be useful, with a view to hiring them or conducting a research project with them.

Basically, the problem is always this black box. We think that it's because of the money. And yet as shown in the last case we mentioned, with the person who had sent everything required, he received the same response to the effect that there was nothing to prove he would leave after graduating.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

And yet we're supposed to be encouraging people to come here.

[Mohamadou Sarr]

Exactly.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That's really incomprehensible.

[Mohamadou Sarr]

I just like to point out that in Quebec, France and Belgium are exempt from the lump sum amount. For undergraduate studies, they pay tuition fees at the same rate as Canadians, which is about $4,000 per term. There were plans to do this for other francophone countries, but it never happened. However, for others, there's an agreement between Quebec and some francophone countries. There is even an agreement with China now. But it's all about quotas. For example, there will be 80 scholarships for Algerians, but 80 scholarships for 4,000 students is not a whole lot.

Everything's okay for French and Belgian students, but it's difficult to attract them because the climate is pleasant there and the living standard is the same as here in Canada.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I think that Mr. Kiti said earlier that one of the problems was the transition from French to English when filling out forms. Did you find that it was difficult to converse with the immigration officers who were speaking French?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

Absolutely, yes.

Most of the documents are available in French, but getting service in French from the officers can sometimes be a bit difficult.

I'd like to take this opportunity to say that although we are talking a lot about students at the moment, there is considerable potential for workers. I'll use my remaining 10 seconds to thank the chair, who just recently, in the middle of the pandemic, helped me welcome 13 families, a total of 43 people, all francophones from Togo, to New Brunswick. I believe that we mustn't overlook the potential of workers. This means that it's important to work with economic councils and business centres.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Kiti.

I could let you continue sending compliments my way, but I have to move on to the NDP member.

Mr. Boulerice, it's over to you for six minutes.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses.

My first question is for Mr. Laberge.

I'm replacing my colleague, Ms. Ashton, who couldn't be with us today. She had to be in the House to present her bill. You all know her and realize that this is very important to her.

She wanted to ask a question—based on her own experience—about the problems she encountered when she wanted to register her twins for day care services in French. As is the case it for many francophone day care centres, there is a shortage of early childhood educators in Thompson, a shortage that has been aggravated by the pandemic. Attempts to recruit early childhood educators from outside Canada have proved very difficult.

Mr. Laberge, do you think the federal government should have a francophone immigration policy that would include early childhood educators, something that would help francophone and francophile communities begin to teach their children French from a very young age by enrolling them in French-language services?

[Alain Laberge]

It's true that it's a major challenge, and even more so in the regions.

In Thompson, we opened a francophone school three years ago and there is a day care service, but for about 14 months, it proved impossible to fill vacant positions. Parents are waiting to enroll their children. When children begin to attend a francophone school in a minority community, they're going to stay. But if there is are no places in a francophone day care centre, they're going to have to attend an English-language day care. I know that there are shortages there too, but I think the situation is even more desperate and difficult for us.

So, in response to your question about whether we should have a policy, I may not be a born politician, but I do have an administrative bent. So as an administrator I would say that once our day care centres are full, our schools are full, our children are speaking French and we have created an educational community that is much broader than the school itself, then of course.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Education, of course, is a provincial jurisdiction.

I've heard people from the Maritimes say that the situation is not so bad for elementary school, but that afterwards, in high school, when sports and cultural infrastructures are in short supply, people are drawn towards English-language institutions. They have better resources because of their size, and they have programs that are more attractive to teenagers.

Have you encountered that where you're from?

[Alain Laberge]

Definitely.

It's not so dire in Winnipeg because we have a somewhat higher concentration of francophones, which means that we can have larger secondary schools, and sports teams, but if you're a high school student in a rural school where, from grade 9 to grade 12, there is a total of perhaps 50 students, then you're obviously not going to have a hockey team or a football team. It's impossible. ^xx

So what this means is that there are students who would like to remain in a French school, but our schools are not always appealing. In several provinces, the schools that were turned over to the francophone school boards were the relics the anglophones no longer wanted. I'm not saying that to be nasty. So imagine a brand new school with a gymnasium right beside a francophone school built 60 years ago that doesn't have a gym. That's what we have in two of our regions. As a parent, it's all very well to be a hardcore francophone and love the French language, but you're going to opt for the English school.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Yes, unfortunately. Nevertheless, I think some investments might be possible in some instances and that these would be appreciated.

Mr. Sarr and Mr. Kiti, you spoke earlier about student recruitment. And to be sure, there is discrimination; that was also discussed. I wanted to know more specifically how you assessed the quality of the work done by our Canadian consular services abroad on behalf of students and workers.

Mr. Kiti, you spoke earlier about doing a better job of preparing newcomers. Do you feel there should be improvements in the quality of our consular services?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

I was saying earlier that I have now spent a quarter century, as of this year in fact, in Canada. At the time, it was even more difficult to come to Canada. It's somewhat better now, but there's still a lot of work to do. The question I ask myself, and that I'm asking you, the MPs, is about the work you might be able to do with us. It would amount to determining whether there is any preferential treatment for some countries compared to others.

We commented about the fact that it was easier for some countries to get visas. One might say that it's close to discrimination. If so, it means that improvement is needed.

We could work together with us to prepare reports, at both the provincial and federal levels, and with the host communities, to ensure that the cases are well documented.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Do you have any comments, Mr. Sarr?

[Mohamadou Sarr]

What he has said is true. The biggest problem may be the enormous number of agencies all over the place that take advantage of people. I think that if we can work together, we need to look at all the information and make sure that it's not confusing.

Sometimes, people go to the appropriate location but then feel lost, and have to call on someone for help. They are asked for money, and sometimes there is even fraud involved.

[Cyriaque Kiti]

There might also be assistance available from consular diplomatic representations. They could be very helpful.

[Alexandre Boulerice, NDP, Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC]

Good. We have 10 seconds left, and I will give them to the chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.

We had agreed informally that we were going to extend the meeting that was supposed to end 10 minutes ago. I will continue, because we had agreed on it, but only for another two and a half minutes.

Mr. Lehoux first, and then we'll move on to Ms. Kayabaga.

Mr. Lehoux, you only have two and a half minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to all the witnesses here today.

Mr. Kiti, you're a consultant. There has been a lengthy discussion on students, but you also raised the matter of workers who might be interested in coming. I just heard Mr. Sarr mention that there were some problems with fraud, because there are far too many consultants.

What kind of controls could be introduced?

It's important to work together. It's understandable that there might be abuse, and it does nothing to improve the system.

Do you have anything in mind that you could suggest to us?

[Cyriaque Kiti]

What I would suggest is approaching diplomatic representatives about the validation of skills, diplomas, and degrees.

I know that the government of Canada has accredited doctors who check people's health and safety. I think that a system should be introduced to enable Canada to check people's files more easily. As you know, diplomatic representations are accredited and inject some rigour into the process. They could certainly provide support. If, for example, it became necessary to establish law firms that could verify the documents, it would contribute enormously, and prevent fraud.

As Mr. Sarr just said, there is work to be done at this level.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Mr. Sarr, do you have anything to add to what Mr. Kiti said?

[Mohamadou Sarr]

Yes. He spoke about speeding up the process, and that's something we should all work on together, particularly the federal government and the provincial government. Sometimes, you're just handed a sheet of paper and it takes months if not years.

It's true, of course, that COVID-19 made things worse, but I don't think it's the main factor that discourages people and leads to all the abuses.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

All right. Thanks to both of you.

Mr. Laberge, I have a brief question. If you don't have time to answer, I'd appreciate it if you could send a written response.

You said that it was very important to get parents involved. Do you have anything to recommend to us in terms of inclusion.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Lehoux, but I'm going to have to stick to the timing.

The next two and a half minutes are for Ms. Kayabaga.

Please go ahead, Ms. Kayabaga.