Official Languages Committee on June 20th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You've raised a good point.

I should have mentioned that we'll be unable to continue today's meeting beyond 5:30 p.m. owing to technical reasons. It's impossible. That's why we've shortened the time allowed for each group of witnesses, and it's now approximately 40 minutes rather than an hour.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I had some questions for Ms. Cardinal, but won't be able to ask them. Is that what you're telling me?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, unfortunately, that's what I'm saying.

Thanks once again to the witnesses.

We're going to suspend the meeting to make way for the next presenters.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We are resuming the meeting.

I'd now like to welcome the witnesses we'll be hearing over the next hour.

We'll begin with two representatives from the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario: the President, Mr. Carol Jolin, and the Executive Director, Mr. Peter Hominuk. We also have Mr. Martin Théberge, the President of the Société nationale de l'Acadie. All these witnesses are appearing in person, while Ms. Véronique Mallet, the Executive Director of the Société nationale de l'Acadie, will be attending virtually.

As usual, each organization will have of up to five minutes for its opening address. After that, the witnesses can give us their information by answering questions from the committee members.

To begin, I'll give the floor to the President of the Association de la francophonie de l'Ontario, for five minutes.

[Carol Jolin, President, Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario]

Mr. Chair, Hon. members, good afternoon. I am truly pleased to be able to see you in person.

I am happy to be able to join you as you study Bill C‑13. I'd like to thank you for having invited the AF0, the Assemblée de la francophonie de l'Ontario, to testify in connection with your work. As an advocacy organization, we represent approximately 744,000 Franco-Ontarians.

With me today is the AFO's Executive Director, Mr. Peter Hominuk.

The AFO welcomed the tabling of Bill C‑13 on March 1. The Franco-Ontarian community and its partners in other provinces and territories have been working for over six years to convince the government of the importance of modernizing the Official Languages Act.

As written, the bill contains interesting initiatives for our community, such as bilingualism for Supreme Court judges, a review of the act every 10 years, as is the case henceforth in Ontario, and the entrenchment of the Court Challenges Program.

As the committee carries on with its study of this bill, which is dear to the francophone communities, I would like to take this opportunity to speak about the importance of certain amendments proposed by the FCFA, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, which we support because they address important issues that we consider essential if the bill is to have the maximum possible impact once adopted.

The most important aspect has to do with the role of the Treasury Board as the central coordinating agency for the implementation of this act. The second addresses the importance of Bill C‑13 in the development of Franco-Ontarian communities, particularly in intergovernmental agreements. The third and final important issue is the francophone immigration policy.

There is a fundamental problem with the act that has persisted for 50 years, and it's the fact that Canadian Heritage cannot require other government departments to do anything. We strongly recommend that the Treasury Board be designated in the bill as the only central agency responsible for implementing the act and for centralizing all coordination powers.

I want to be clear about this: we don't want to take away the policy role performed by Canadian Heritage, nor reduce its capacity to develop and administer programs. However, Canadian Heritage cannot, owing to its very nature, oversee consistent implementation of the act in all the other departments. Only a central agency can do that effectively.

The matter of incorporating the language clauses also deserves your consideration. As written, Bill C‑13 does not require the negotiation of language clauses in federal-provincial-territorial agreements. And yet these clauses are essential for ensuring compliance with federal official languages commitments when funds are given to the provinces and territories. A recent example of this can be found in the federal-provincial negotiations on child care. We still don't know whether the child care program contains language clauses. Things remain somewhat vague. At the moment, the modernization of the act gives the government an opportunity to strengthen the linguistic duality and require that it be taken into consideration in agreements signed with the provinces and territories, which bodes well for all francophones in Canada.

I will end my address by talking about immigration.

Francophone immigration is one of the keys to maintaining the vitality of francophones in minority communities. The bill states that the immigration policy has to include a target and accountability measures, but objectives are not specified.

As you know, the federal francophone immigration target has not come close to being met, and has not for many years. If the trend continues, the government will be unsuccessful in meeting the 2023 target, and this will contribute hugely to the decline in the demographic weight of our community.

One of the consequences of failing to meet targets is further shrinking of the francophone and bilingual workforce. This has an impact on every sector: the private sector, the public sector, and even not-for-profit organizations, for example. There are simply not enough skilled workers to serve francophones. To counteract this shortage, immigration is essential, as is the full education continuum, from early childhood to post-secondary education.

The bill should specify the goals of the francophone immigration policy being put forward in the new version of the act. If that is done, the new act might breathe new life into our communities.

Thank you for your attention. I'll be happy to answer any questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Jolin. You've kept to your speaking time by taking only 4 minutes and 40 seconds.

I'll go now to Mr. Théberge, from the Société nationale de l'Acadie, the SNA, who has the floor for five minutes.

[Martin Théberge, President, Société nationale de l'Acadie]

Good afternoon.

Thank you for this opportunity to present the SNA's vision of Bill C‑13. I'm not about to give you a lengthy presentation on our organization. I will simply point out that the SNA has, since 1881, spoken out on behalf of the Acadian people, whose values and interests it defends.

Bill C‑13, to amend the Official Languages Act, places an emphasis on acknowledging the uniqueness of the French fact in Canada, on establishing substantive equality between French and English, and also on the need to develop strong institutions to protect the vitality of French in Canada. We believe that this calls for the asymmetrical development of official languages to give French, which happens to be more vulnerable, the resources it needs to prosper.

This means forceful action appropriately supported by Acadian civil diplomacy, which is an important tool for the development of our communities.

Civil diplomacy contributes to identity building. When the people of Acadia see that they are represented internationally, it makes them fully aware of their imagined country. Without official state institutions, people learn about Acadia when the SNA attends international events alongside heads of state; when its flag is flown in France, Belgium, Louisiana or Switzerland; when it has a presence at the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie or UNESCO. The resulting pride and sense of identity are essential to community engagement.

Acadia's international efforts also build its legitimacy among citizens and in the anglophone majority. The summit of the Francophonie, and visits by heads of state, are all indicative of Acadia's appeal. A number of provincial ministers recently accompanied the SNA on an official mission in France. They had the opportunity to meet the President of the French Republic and some of their French counterparts, which would have been unthinkable under different circumstances. All of this enhances the appreciation of Acadia at home.

After Brexit, which made France the gateway to Europe, Acadia has also become a regional economic development partner. France's consulate general in the Atlantic provinces, which came about as a result of that country's desire to support Acadia, has been very productive in terms of partnerships between French and Canadian firms, whether they belong to francophones or anglophones. The forthcoming establishment of a French international school in the Atlantic region is another example of major investments resulting from our special relationship with France.

Civil diplomacy is also a major promotional vehicle for Acadia. Our Atlantic committee on francophone immigration promotes Acadia as a place that can host immigrants from the international Francophonie. It is an essential tool for achieving francophone immigration targets in Canada.

Similarly, our society for the promotion of Acadian artists internationally enables our artists to make a name for themselves abroad. It also puts them in touch with producers, agents and directors of venues from the international Francophonie.

Not only that, but the Office de la mobilité internationale en Acadie mentors young francophones and francophiles in an international mobility project. For example, in the 2018‑2019 year alone, the office hosted two young trainees from France's civic service, while two Acadians spent a semester studying in France, and another two went on internships to Louisiana and Belgium.

All of these pivotal efforts are a challenge, because they are currently being done more as a result of enthusiasm and personal commitment than financial support. This state of affairs prevents the SNA from availing itself of opportunities that are important for the people of Acadia and Canada alike.

As for Bill C‑13, the SNA is emphatic that it is important for the Canadian government to acknowledge the specific identity of Acadia and its mouthpiece, the SNA, as a special player from the standpoint of civil diplomacy, and to provide it with the resources it requires to pursue its work.

We are in the final stages of drafting our brief and will send it to you as soon as it is ready. I'd like to end by clearly summarizing the recommendations that will be in our brief, and which are the outcome of what I have just presented to you.

We therefore recommend that the Canadian government acknowledge the distinctiveness of Acadia as a civil diplomacy stakeholder; that it recognize the SNA in its advocacy role on behalf of the Acadian nation by embodying this civil diplomacy; that it acknowledge the special relationship between France and Acadia, and that this acknowledgement be accompanied by appropriate support.

We further recommend that the Government of Canada develop a cross-functional civil diplomacy strategy that includes civil society and government sector stakeholders in various areas, including the economy, culture, education and immigration.

In addition, we recommend that civil society activities like the promotion of Acadian artists, the mobility of young Acadians, and francophone immigration to Acadia, be funded from both national and international perspectives.

Lastly, we recommend that the government support international twinning initiatives and the creation of an Acadian commission for international cooperation.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Théberge.

Great. You spoke for 4 minutes and 59 seconds.

We will now move on to the first round of questions. Each political party will have six minutes to ask questions.

Mr. Lehoux, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Richard Lehoux, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

It's Mr. Gourde who's up now.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Right. Sorry, I had relied on the document in front of me.

I had almost forgotten you, Mr. Gourde. You have the floor for six minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here. Their testimony is truly important and will contribute a great deal to the preparation of our report.

Mr. Jolin, You spoke at length about the Treasury Board and the importance of having a central agency. Could you expand on that?

[Carol Jolin]

For some 50 years, Canadian Heritage has been responsible for implementing the act. However, Canadian Heritage doesn't have any power over the departments. Canadian Heritage does its work and makes recommendations to the departments, but they are free as to whether they will implement 25%, 50% or 100% of the recommendations, or none at all.

If we want this bill to advance the francophone cause, we clearly need an agency that has authority over these departments. In this instance, the agency in the best position is, we feel, the Treasury Board.

It's not a matter of taking away from Canadian Heritage the work that it does. It would continue to administer its programs as it has been doing very well for many years. However, we would like the Treasury Board to be solely responsible for everything surrounding the implementation of the act.

In the bill as it now stands, it includes a paragraph which would allow the Treasury Board to delegate its responsibilities. It's essential that this should not be left in the act, because the Treasury Board should be solely in charge of coordinating the act's implementation. This would mean that the departments would have to comply with the recommendations and the work being done with respect to the act, contrary to the situation we have been in for some time now.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

You spoke to some extent about immigration in Canada. Expectations are high that immigration will increase the number of francophones in Canada. But we all know that the Department of Citizenship and Immigration is having a great deal of difficulty in handling its internal problems and that the wait times are much too long.

Are we placing too much hope on our immigration system? Does the department need to be completely restructured?

[Carol Jolin]

There is an enormous amount of work to do, beginning with Bill C‑13. The bill mentions targets and accountability, but does not contain any objectives. Nobody knows how the Department of Citizenship and Immigration will deal with it.

It's an extremely important issue. While there is a shortage of anglophone workers, it's much worse on the francophone side. In Ontario, the French Language Services Act has just been overhauled, and efforts are being made to improve services in French. However, workers are needed to provide the services. At the moment, it's undeniable that a great deal of francophone immigration is needed.

Lately, we've been hearing that international students are having a lot of trouble obtaining a visa to come and study in Canada. Ms. Cardinal spoke about many situations like this. There is only one visa office in Dakar serving something like 12 countries. If we're serious about francophone immigration, we need to begin by opening visa offices in several locations in Africa to enable people to submit an application. Once students get here, their reception needs to be facilitated and they should be offered an opportunity to remain once they have completed their studies. Currently, when people tick the box on the form indicating that they want to remain in Canada following their studies, their visa application is refused. There is a problem somewhere and it needs to be resolved. Immigration needs to be facilitated by making sure that students can come and study in Canada and that after graduating, they can remain here, preferably in Ontario. The process of obtaining permanent residence afterwards should also be facilitated.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

I have a brief question for you, Mr. Jolin.

The next appointment of a judge to the Supreme Court of Canada will be critical in terms of determining the government's will to follow through on Bill C‑13. Historically, the government has often appointed unilingual anglophone judges. Could the government possibly make the same mistake again?

[Carol Jolin]

I hope that this mistake will not be repeated. In its speech from the throne, the government committed itself to the Francophonie and it will have to take follow‑up action. In the bill, this means appointing bilingual judges to the Supreme Court. That represents another opportunity to do so. I hope, for once, that they will walk the talk.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

The Commissioner of Official Languages…

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 20 seconds left, Mr. Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

In that case, I'd like to thank the witnesses. It's really been very interesting.

I'll leave my few remaining seconds to others.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I'm sorry for being so strict, but I want everyone to have at least six minutes of speaking time.

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to point out how fortunate I am in my riding to be representing the best-ever executive director of a francophone association, Mr. Hominuk. I'd like to thank him for testifying before our committee.

Mr. Jolin, as it happens, is right next door to my riding. He too does good work.

Francophones have for a long time now been discussing the Treasury Board's role. It has often been pointed out that Canadian Heritage introduced measures to encourage compliance with the Official Languages Act, but that this wasn't enough.

Ms. Cardinal said earlier that there were differences of opinion among francophones. Some thought that the role of the Treasury Board should be clearly defined to ensure that it did not delegate its powers. I'd like to give just a few examples where the Treasury Board was able to perform its role effectively while delegating some of its authority.

The Treasury Board, of course, will not go out to consult francophone communities; that's not its role. However, it is up to the Treasury Board to tell departments like Canadian Heritage, Finance and Public Safety, that they have clear responsibilities in this area. If Bill C‑13 is passed, there will be some delegation of authority, but the departments will have to comply with the rules if they want their funding requests to be approved by the Treasury Board.

Have you had an opportunity to speak with experts who have worked in government about the difference between giving all the powers to the Treasury Board, and on the other hand, allowing it to delegate some of these powers?

[Carol Jolin]

We have not spoken with any experts who have worked in this area.

But to restate the position taken by the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, it's extremely important for things to be clear so that we don't end up with a lottery in terms of knowing whether things are only going to be done by half, completely, or not at all. Another government, for example, might have a different stance on it, which would send us back to square one.

According to the position taken by the FCFA, with which we agree, the coordination and implementation of the act should rest entirely with the Treasury Board, and the paragraph concerning the delegation of its powers should be removed. This wouldn't mean that the Treasury Board couldn't consult departments like Canadian Heritage on the work to be done, but we firmly believe that the Treasury Board should be the central agency.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I've been meeting the same people as you. I have experience in procurement, and it was my main line of work for almost 10 years. The Treasury Board sets procurement policy, but does not actually handle the procurement process. It also has authority for human resources, but does not itself hire human resources other than its own. It would delegate this responsibility to the departments, but the departments would have to comply with policy. If they did not, it would remind them that they have failed in their duties and would accordingly not approve the requested funding .

We share the same goal, but we may have different ways of getting there. In your testimony, you clearly said that Canadian Heritage should continue to perform its role within the communities, because it is the department with that kind of experience. In principle, the Treasury Board would delegate its power to Canadian Heritage and ask it to continue its work, because Canadian Heritage has experience in consulting francophone and anglophone minority communities.

It's important. Bill C‑13 won't be ready tomorrow morning, but rather in the fall. We know it now and I'm saying it publicly. When you and I are no longer here, others will have to understand future amendments to the Official Languages Act.

[Carol Jolin]

You mentioned the Treasury Board and it's financial authority. What we are talking about is making amendments to Bill C‑13 to ensure that the Treasury Board would be responsible for coordinating the implementation of the act. If the Treasury Board already has this authority, why hasn't it made more use of it over the past 50 years?

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Before, it could do so; now it will have to. That's the difference.