Official Languages Committee on Sept. 27th, 2022

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

It's exemplary.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

We will continue with Daniel Boucher, from the Société de la francophonie manitobaine.

[Daniel Boucher, Executive Director, Société de la francophonie manitobaine]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Greetings from the beautiful province of Manitoba and the centre of Canada. I would like to thank the Standing Committee on Official Languages for inviting us to appear today. My name is Daniel Boucher, and I am the executive director of the Société de la francophonie manitobaine, or SFM. I am joining you today from Treaty No. 1 territory, and the lands I am standing on are part of the traditional territory of the Anishinabe, Cree, Oji-Cree, Dakota and Dene peoples and the homeland of the Métis nation. On this eve of the National Day for Truth and Reconciliation, I want to acknowledge that the French language was unfortunately used as an instrument of colonization in the history of the indigenous peoples.

Today SFM expresses its wish that the indigenous peoples and communities in Canada may flourish, and we demand complete respect for their voices, particularly in their efforts to preserve and restore indigenous languages. As the representative organization of the francophone community of Manitoba, and with the help of its network of collaborators and partners, SFM strives for the advancement of all the community's areas of activity.

I would like to address two major themes today: the urgent need to modernize the Official Languages Act and the importance of language clauses respecting third parties. First, I would like to state that SFM fully supports the demands of the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne, the FCFA, respecting the modernization of the Official Languages Act. I would also like to refer to the brief that the FCFA submitted in May entitled, Proposed amendments to Bill C‑13, An Act to amend the Official Languages Act, to enact the Use of French in Federally Regulated Private Businesses Act and to make related amendments to other Acts.

You have that brief to hand, and it is divided into six themes: clarifying the Treasury Board's role; addressing the issue of language clauses with third parties, including the other orders of government; ensuring the effectiveness of the francophone immigration policy; strengthening part VII, particularly with respect to consultations; including part VII in the order-making powers of the Commissioner of Official Languages; and clarifying the definition of “francophone minorities”.

The work leading up to Bill C‑13, currently under consideration, was not done in haste and began more than five years ago. The bill itself is the result of many studies and consultations conducted, in particular, by this committee, the Office of the Commissioner of Official Languages, the Standing Senate Committee on Official Languages, the Department of Canadian Heritage, the FCFA, and many others.

As our president, Angela Cassie, told the committee on February 14 last, before Bill C‑13 was introduced, “Any more delays would only further weaken the position of French in our communities. Parliament should therefore begin its work immediately.”

However, I agree, as do all francophone communities, that Bill C‑13 still contains deficiencies that must be corrected. I refer you once again to the FCFA's recommendations. This bill is an important step toward ensuring the survival of the official language minority communities. Do not let this legislative work be in vain. The Official Languages Act must be renewed soon, failing which prejudices will worsen.

Moving on to the importance of language clauses, allow me first to clarify the reason why the issue of these clauses with third parties, including the other orders of government, should be addressed more expressly in Bill C‑13. In Manitoba, under certain agreements between the province and the federal government, support is provided for the development of the official language minority communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Boucher, can you summarize your conclusion in 15 seconds?

[Daniel Boucher]

All right.

In some instances, these clauses concern early childhood. To sum up, we have language clauses that enable us to develop as a community. We're essentially trying to ensure that this is included in Bill C‑13.

I'm now ready to answer your questions. With me today is Jean-Michel Beaudry, who can respond as well.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Boucher.

I realize five minutes isn't much time, but you'll have an opportunity to continue your presentation during the period of questions.

We will begin the first six-minute round of questions with the first vice-chair of this committee, Joël Godin.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses, Ms. Montreuil and Mr. Boucher.

I'm going to let you continue your presentation, Mr. Boucher. At the end of your statement, you discussed language clauses and the need for them to be explicit.

Could you be “more explicit” in your definition of “language clauses”? It must be understood that a language clause is a provision respecting languages. However, we're studying Bill C‑13, which concerns the modernization of the two official languages, English and French.

Wouldn't it be better to state more clearly that the purpose of those clauses is to maintain both official languages?

[Daniel Boucher]

In our case, we're essentially talking about the French language in communities where we aren't in the majority. The principle that's important to follow with regard to language clauses is that, when you acquire a benefit at the federal level, a program, for example, or a benefit negotiated or transferred to the provinces, it's important not to lose that connection after the benefit is transferred or negotiated. It's hard to put a lost asset back on the table, whether it's a service or a language obligation

Language clauses are important for us because we have an important federal partner and provincial partners that guarantee services and administer agreements. In those circumstances, it's important to maintain and even improve language clauses when transfers are made and agreements reached.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I have another question concerning language clauses.

Since the federal government works with the provinces and territories, it has to consider the jurisdictional issue. It's always a delicate matter to impose something on the provinces. We of the Conservative Party respect the areas of jurisdiction of the provinces and territories.

How could we come up with a model under which we could achieve the objective while respecting the areas of jurisdiction of the provinces and territories?

[Daniel Boucher]

I think you've raised a very good point.

This important issue should be put on the table and be part of the discussion. Some things are very simple and others more complex. Generally speaking, however, if it's impossible to have language clauses, there's a problem.

I mentioned early childhood, for example. It's essential for us to have language clauses that guarantee French-language services.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Let's consider the child care program agreement, for example. How can we compel Manitoba to establish infrastructure to serve Manitoba's francophone minority without encroaching on the province's jurisdictions?

It's a very delicate matter, and one that we respect. I'd just like to find a solution so we can both respect federal, provincial and territorial agreements and achieve the objective involved in modernizing the Official Languages Act, which is to give the minority language communities access to French-language services.

[Daniel Boucher]

That's a very good question, but, once again, we're asking that the door at least be open and that it be possible to reach that kind of agreement with the provinces and territories.

I know there are various areas of jurisdiction and that these kinds of agreements have to be negotiated. I believe Mr. Beaudry might have something to add.

[Jean-Michel Beaudry, Assistant Director General, Société de la francophonie manitobaine]

We are the proof that this approach can work because we have an agreement under which the provincial government is required to consult the community before making any decision so that the needs expressed by the minority are taken into consideration.

The Manitoba example shows that this can work. The success of this approach doesn't depend on predetermined relationships, but rather on the fact that there's an agreement. If the federal government has an obligation to negotiate with the provinces, it will be able to do so.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Based on what you're telling me, since the community is being consulted, you can believe that language clauses will be protected in future and that Manitoba's francophone minorities will be well served. Wouldn't you like the bill to have more teeth? Are you satisfied with that?

[Jean-Michel Beaudry]

The provincial government [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

We can't hear you, Mr. Beaudry.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Beaudry, can you hear us?

[Daniel Boucher]

It's working.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Since you're with us, Mr. Boucher, can you continue?

[Daniel Boucher]

Yes.

Regarding potential negotiations with the provinces and territories, it's really important to continue this discussion on the specific issue of consultations.

Obviously, the more rights we secure, the better it will be. Once again, however, it's important to include in the bill an obligation to consult, which could lead to language clauses that are more robust and better suited to the needs of the provinces.

Although we clearly understand the sharing of jurisdictions and the differences between those jurisdictions and the fact that we respect them, certain official language obligations take precedence over those considerations. We should always bear them in mind, put them on the table and consider what we can do together to achieve a good result.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Boucher.

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank my colleagues here present, both in person and virtually.

My first question is for Ms. Montreuil.

You raised a very important point. It's true that research conducted in French is on the decline in Canada and around the world and isn't proportionally representative of the global francophone population. The vice-chair and I are also discussing that issue.

We're trying to determine how to stimulate scientific research and establish incentives so that it's published more extensively around the world. I know there are excellent researchers in Canada. The aim of these discussions is also to give them access to French-language infrastructure and vehicles and francophone universities, or at the very least enable them to dialogue in French.

How can that aspect be linked to Bill C‑13?

Then I'll discuss positive measures with you.

[Sophie Montreuil]

It's closely linked to Bill C‑13; that's clear. I won't comment on the French-language research situation around the world. I'll be focusing on Canada because the data we have concerns this country. It comes from the study we conducted together with some leading researchers.

Here are a few figures. In 2020, there were 63,455 francophone researchers in Canada, 30,070 of whom worked in francophone minority communities. Broadly speaking, that number was almost evenly divided between Quebec and the other provinces.

Researchers who conduct research in French in Quebec don't experience the issues that the other 30,000 researchers in the other provinces encounter. These are two worlds, two completely different universes.

You mentioned dissemination. I'll begin by discussing the support provided for research production.

Researchers need research funding. There are three granting councils. First, at the federal level, there's the Canadian Foundation for Innovation. However, according to the figures in the report we published, the percentages of funding granted to francophone researchers are less than those of funding granted to anglophone researchers. You could say that's not unusual if it represented a proportional distribution among anglophone and francophone researchers, but that's not the case. Consider this example. Only 5% to 12% of funding applications submitted to the granting councils are prepared in French, whereas francophone researchers represent 21% of the research community.

Here's the reason for that discrepancy. In many cases, researchers conducting research in French at a bilingual or English-language university can't submit their funding applications in French because authorities at their institutions are unable to assess their French submissions. Bear in mind that applications may be several tens of pages long. Consequently, researchers either don't submit them or they prepare them in English, which isn't their first language. We can assume that the quality of those applications isn't as high as if they had been prepared in the researchers' native language. So there's a problem at the outset.

There's no substantive equality with researchers who conduct research in English, even though francophone researchers are absolutely entitled to it. I'm not taking a confrontational stance here; I just want to promote substantive equality. In Canada, we're entitled to want to study in French, to conduct research in French and to teach in French. We simply should have the same conditions as researchers and students who choose to do so in English enjoy. All the figures show that this is unfortunately not the case.

Would you like to react, or would you prefer that I continue?

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Continue quickly, and I'll react quickly afterwards.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have two minutes left, Mr. Drouin.