Official Languages Committee on Sept. 27th, 2022

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

That's why I said “quickly”.

[Sophie Montreuil]

I'll be brief.

My organization's position on the bill and the consultations conducted this past summer on the Action Plan for Official Languages has nothing to do with any defence of the budgets allocated to research. The granting councils have their research budgets.

I'm trying to facilitate the conditions of access to funding applications, and that access is made possible by support for the vitality of the francophone minority communities, which are home to francophone researchers, who are moreover well established in their communities. I'm currently unable to obtain funding—we'll discuss money at some point—from the Department of Canadian Heritage to support those efforts. I'm not talking about securing funding to support research because it's the funding councils that do that. If knowledge in French were more expressly addressed in the act, the Department of Canadian Heritage could create and welcome projects that support francophone scientific vitality in all provinces and cities that are home to francophone communities.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

You mentioned the provision on positive measures, and you propose an amendment under which the words “notamment comprendre” would be replaced by “comprennent”, making the sentence more declarative.

[Sophie Montreuil]

I propose that the words “peuvent notamment comprendre” be replaced by “comprennent”. The sentence would then be more declarative.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I see.

Then you would add the word “recherche” to subparagraph 41(6)c)(iv). Is that correct?

[Sophie Montreuil]

Yes. It would read as follows: “…d'information scientifique...notamment en soutenant la recherche et la vie scientifique”.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

The research chairs, who grant funding, would be required to verify whether they meet their official language obligations. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

I would point out that sticking to the six-minute time guideline allows us to have five full minutes during the second round. That's why I strictly enforce it.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to the witnesses for their presentations.

I'll go to Ms. Montreuil first.

You say that French-language research is on the decline in Canada. We agree on that. Do you think that decline is linked to university funding?

For example, outside Quebec, there's the Université de l'Ontario français, which is new. Generally speaking, there are very few francophone universities relative to the demographic weight of francophones. Do you think that's linked to the decline of French-language research in Canada?

[Sophie Montreuil]

My colleague and closest ally, Lynn Brouillette, who is the president and chief executive officer of the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, is the best person to tell you about universities and their funding. Ms. Brouillette and her organization are trying to improve the funding and recognition of educational institutions, whereas I work at the individual level. So we work together. Consequently, I can't openly comment on that.

Funding the universities is no easy task. However, there has to be more support so the programs… Sometimes programs are even cut.

You should definitely take a careful look at francophone and bilingual post-secondary educational institutions, but also at anglophone universities because research is also conducted in French there.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Federal funding for universities in Quebec comes from sources such as the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council, the Foundation for Innovation and so on. A researcher named Frédéric Lacroix, who has studied this closely, has observed that federal funding for English-language universities in Quebec constantly rose from 34.5% to 38.4% from 2000 to 2017, whereas mother tongue anglophones constitute approximately 8% of Quebec's population. That also has a definite impact on research conducted in French in Quebec and Canada. I think Quebec should support research virtually everywhere.

Do you think criteria should include language clauses to make funding fairer?

[Sophie Montreuil]

I'm going to stay within the limits of what we're proposing.

You mentioned the granting councils. We propose to work together with them to ensure they afford the best possible conditions for researchers wishing to submit their applications in French. That's a recommendation that we made in our June 2021 report. Reviewers must be completely bilingual so that English and French files are handled equally and fairly. These are the aspects that must be focused on first. These are competitions of excellence. It's ultimately the best applicants who are selected.

The granting councils have a role to play in this process. Francophone researchers must be able to state in their applications that they live in a minority community. That might result in a different take on the project they submit.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Historically, the entire French-language post-secondary education system was seriously underfinanced and probably prohibited in several provinces some years ago. Didn't these past injustices give preferential treatment on those who benefited? Ought there not to be some form of remedy?

[Sophie Montreuil]

Today, there is a continuum of French-language education from early childhood to university. While it can't undo what's happened in the past, it is a step forward, which may at least lay some positive and equitable new foundations for francophones and anglophones.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Okay.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

My next question is for Mr. Boucher or Mr. Beaudry from the Société de la francophonie manitobaine.

According to recent data from Statistics Canada, the decline of French in Manitoba has continued. That's what is shown by nearly all the indicators, including first official language spoken. Those who speak mainly French at home account for 1.1% of Manitoba's population.

Do you believe that the Manitoba government, and to a certain extent the federal government, allowed measures prohibiting French in Manitoba from being implemented? Should there be some form of restitution? Do you think there is a desire to rectify past injustices?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's an excellent question, Mr. Beaulieu, but your six minutes are up.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

They can answer in connection with another question.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes.

Ms. Ashton, you have six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to welcome our witnesses. I am of course very pleased to see people from the Société de la francophonie manitobaine here today.

I'd like to begin on somewhat of a personal note. I have already spoken about this in committee.

I'm a francophile from Manitoba, and everyone of my generation had access to an education in French. For me, it was in immersion. We owe a great deal to the hard work and efforts of the Société de la francophonie manitobaine. The battle continues, and it's thanks to you.

I would also like to emphasize the importance of the Franco-Manitoban School Division, which has made it possible for us to send our children to the division's schools so that they can learn French.

On September 7, I had the great privilege of being able to send my twins—you saw one of them earlier—to the La Voie du Nord community school here in Thompson, a community that has no francophone heritage, but where quite a few francophones live. The school is a response to the clear desire of Manitobans of my generation to give their children the opportunity to speak French. It's not something that can be taken for granted. It's been possible because of your work.

The struggle has to continue, and in order to do so, several measures need to be introduced, including the modernization of the Official Languages Act. The existing shortcomings you discussed earlier today need to be addressed.

Once again, I'd like to give you my heartfelt thanks.

I would now like to ask you a few questions.

Mr. Boucher, we have frequently spoken with you and others from the Société de la francophonie manitobaine about the importance of francophone immigration in countering the demographic decline in minority language communities. We have been hoping to have some targets embedded in the act to make up for lost ground, but Bill C‑13 does not get contain any.

How important is catch‑up demographic growth for a francophone community like Manitoba's?

[Daniel Boucher]

Thank you very much, Ms. Ashton.

We are delighted to have a French school in Thompson and to know that your children can go there.

As for the importance of correcting the numbers and setting demographic targets to close the gap in Manitoba, there were worrisome trends in the last census, but on the other hand, the work that we've been doing on francophone immigration for several years now makes us optimistic for the future. That's a partial answer to Mr. Beaulieu's question.

However, it's essential for the Canadian government and the provincial government to work together to reach these targets, because we're not going to get there otherwise. It's absolutely essential to introduce all the programs and services needed to so.

Manitoba has received considerable support in this area. For several years, the federal government has been investing in francophone immigration. But there's still something missing. We're not meeting the francophone immigration targets, which means that Bill C‑13 has to set very concrete targets, because that's one way of making up the demographic shortfall. Unless there are much more robust measures in Bill C‑13, even though I believe we have made quite a lot of headway, we won't move forward. We believe that we would be missing an opportunity if we were to fail to be as explicit as possible in Bill C‑13.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you for your answer.

I would now like to move on to language provisions, a subject that you've already raised. It's one of the priorities of the FCFA, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne. We support this measure and believe, as many people have mentioned, that it would give the Official Languages Act more teeth.

Education is a key issue for francophone minority communities in places like Manitoba. The tools adopted by the various government departments are inadequate to fund the educational mission of teaching institutions. From preschool to post-secondary, the federal government has not been the reliable partner it ought to be.

For example, over the past few years, the francophone day care centre of the DSFM, the Franco-Manitoban School Division, has experienced serious labour shortages. We are well aware of it, because we have supported its efforts to remedy the situation. We are also aware of several other problems, including immigration. There is a lack of funding to encourage people to come and work here and teach our children. The government is only funding ad hoc projects, and educational institutions are having to raise half of their funding elsewhere.

Do you think that language provisions will perform an important role in dealing with this crisis?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's a very good question, Ms. Ashton. Unfortunately, we are short of time. There might be an opportunity to come back to it.

Mr. Généreux, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses.

Good afternoon, Ms. Montreuil. My first question is for you.

What's a positive measure, in your opinion? Such measures are discussed at length in Bill C‑13 and we've talked about them with several witnesses who told us that they're important. But what are they, concretely? People appear to be saying that they could be applied through regulations developed afterwards, or at least formulated. What does it mean for you?

That's a good question, isn't it?

[Sophie Montreuil]

Yes, it's an excellent question and I'll answer it from memory because I don't have my computer in front of me to check the exact wording of Bill C‑13.

I previously mentioned the changes we were proposing for those aspects of the bill pertaining to positive measures.

Positive measures can represent leverage to encourage the entire machinery of government to comply with and espouse the principles of the act. We are proposing changes in wording because the very words used in those passages about positive measures all provide leverage on behalf of organizations like mine, and can remind certain authorities, organizations, departments and other bodies of their obligations under the act.

For example, in the paragraph that begins with “to support the creation and dissemination of scientific information in French,” we propose adding, “namely by supporting scientific research and science in French”.

Concretely, this proposed addition would give us some leverage to tell the Department of Canadian Heritage that, to the best of our ability given our limited funds, we support all of our researchers, students, experienced professors, and volunteers across Canada. They do remarkable work to ensure that the French language and French-language activities exist within their institutions and communities, and our view is that it's up to the country to support the vitality of these communities.

One such positive measure would give us added leverage to do things like insist that the Department of Canadian Heritage fulfill its obligations.

You may perhaps think that the research granting councils are taking care of everything and that it's a done deal, but that's not the case. It's all linked together, because in order to support research, one must also support science and the communities, as well as student development, if we want them to be able to continue their research in French and remain in their communities rather than have to move to another province.

An organization like the Department of Canadian Heritage could have much more responsibility in this area