Official Languages Committee on Oct. 18th, 2022

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Yes, I know.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Iacono, go ahead. You have six minutes.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here today.

My questions are for my fellow lawyer François Larocque.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Larocque is part of the other panel, Mr. Iacono.

Mr. Lepage is the lawyer we have now.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

My apologies, Mr. Chair.

In that case, I'll wait until we have the second panel.

Would someone else in my party like my time?

If not, I will continue with Mr. —

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Drouin will take your turn.

[Angelo Iacono, Liberal, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Very good.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Lepage and Mr. Boucher, for agreeing to appear before the committee.

Not only has Ontario's francophone community been waiting and waiting for Bill C‑13, but so have francophone communities all over the country.

Mr. Lepage, you were asked by Mr. Godin whether we should pass the bill. He also asked you specific questions about the central agency's role. As a lawyer, you know that the Treasury Board is responsible for the implementation of parts IV, V and VI, under Bill C‑13.

Previously, the Treasury Board was allowed to step in but never did. Under part IV of the new act, the Treasury Board is required to take action, as part of its responsibilities, and establish policies to give effect to parts IV, V and VI.

Clearly, questions exist around part VII and the positive measures component. The Treasury Board gives the Department of Canadian Heritage power over that. As you know, the Treasury Board is not an institution that deals with the public. It deals with the inner workings of government, the inside baseball, as they say.

I want to make sure I understand your position.

You're saying that we shouldn't pass Bill C‑13 if the Treasury Board is not the institution responsible for part VII. That's your recommendation.

Do I have that right?

[Roger Lepage]

What I'm saying is that the agency with the money has to be the one responsible for part VII. Simply giving the Department of Canadian Heritage the responsibility for taking positive measures does not mean that it will get the resources it needs to do so.

For that reason, the central agency needs to be the one in charge of part VII, in other words, the Treasury Board. It's going to be an expensive undertaking, so responsibility for implementing part VII should rest with the Treasury Board.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I see. I understand what you're saying.

Keep in mind that dealing with the public is not part of the Treasury Board's culture. It has never handed out funding to regular folks or organizations. What the Treasury Board does—at least, in theory—is ensure that policies are established to give effect to parts IV, V and VI of the act.

As we've seen in the past, it didn't always do that. Now that the Treasury Board will be required to do so under the new act, the agency will have to answer to the courts if it doesn't—and rightfully so. If the Treasury Board fails to discharge its obligation, official language minority communities will pay the price at the end of the day.

The Department of Canadian Heritage has always dealt with the organizations we are all familiar with. Basically, what you're saying is that it has to go hand in hand with proper funding. That brings me to another point.

You mentioned school boards earlier. Yesterday, I saw a news report that, in Toronto right now, no French-speaking candidates are running for trustee positions on a French-language school board.

Does that make sense to you?

[Roger Lepage]

It may not make sense, but it reflects the situation on the ground.

Francophones have become so assimilated and the francophone community outside Quebec has so many exogamous couples that when you look at rights holders who want to send their children to French-language schools, you see that French is the first language learned and understood for only one parent.

The situation is at an all-time low. As hard as it may be to imagine, that's the reality.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

The measure relating to rights holders has been in place for a few years now. We realize just how important it is for French-language school boards.

You brought up the action plan, specifically, funding. You think it needs to be topped up. I got that loud and clear.

Now I want to circle back to Bill C‑13.

Do you have other amendments to the bill you want to recommend?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 30 seconds left.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

If you run out of time, Mr. Lepage, you can submit your answer in writing.

[Roger Lepage]

I made a number of recommendations in my brief. The one on immigration comes to mind. The Official Languages Act should set a very high standard in order to raise francophone immigration levels because they are much too low. We are still losing ground.

The Official Languages Act needs to include a provision or regulation to significantly increase francophone immigration, as well as measures to counteract assimilation.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Mr. Lepage.

Next on the list is the committee's second vice-chair.

Go ahead, Mr. Beaulieu. You have six minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good morning.

Thank you to the two witnesses for being here today. Your presentations were very informative.

Mr. Boucher, as a result of British and Canadian colonialism, the majority of educational institutions in the 1960s were English, even in Quebec.

Under the Official Languages Act, the English-speaking minority was deemed to be the only linguistic minority in Quebec, and all funding for schools in Quebec went to that minority, particularly in the beginning. What do you think of that?

[Étienne-Alexis Boucher]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu, for voicing a position that certainly doesn't reflect the common view in the House of Commons. It is, nevertheless, a position that needs to be heard. The silence of your fellow members sometimes makes me think that ours is not a welcome voice here, in Parliament.

As I said, according to international law and the UN, the anglophone population in Quebec does not constitute a minority. The issue was decided in Ballantyne, Davidson, McIntyre v. Canada in 1989, and the decision was released in 1993.

Here is a quote:

Further, article 50 of the [International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights] provides that its provisions extend to all parts of Federal States without any limitations or exceptions. Accordingly, the minorities referred to in article 27 are minorities within such a State, and not minorities within any province. A group may constitute a majority in a province but still be a minority in a State and thus be entitled to the benefits of article 27. English speaking citizens of Canada cannot be considered a linguistic minority [regardless of where they live in the country].

The Official Languages Act and the funding that flows from it overwhelmingly support the English-speaking minority even though it is very well looked after. It has health care facilities and schools; students can begin their English-language education in preschool and continue right through university.

Francophones outside Quebec do not have access to similar institutions, of course. What's more, numerous laws were introduced over time preventing francophones from obtaining an education in their mother tongue. Fortunately, those laws were abolished in the 1960s.

I can't help but question the federal government's objectives, since the English language is obviously thriving all over the country, including in Quebec. The latest census figures from Statistics Canada illustrate that, despite the fact that the agency changed how it calculates the size of linguistic communities in Canada a few years ago. No longer can the decline of the francophone community across Canada—including in Quebec—be hidden.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

All the English language advocacy groups in Quebec are funded by the federal government. Apparently—

[Étienne-Alexis Boucher]

They are unilaterally federally funded, without any involvement from the Quebec government, even though the government of Quebec should be responsible for administering language matters in Quebec.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

That's true, except for schools, which are covered by agreements between Canada and Quebec.

You are the president of Droits collectifs Québec, and you also advocate for the French-speaking community through the Société nationale de l'Estrie.

How much do you think that funding represents? Does the government of Quebec provide comparable funding to French language advocacy groups?

[Étienne-Alexis Boucher]

It provides absolutely no funding.

No funding is available for French language advocacy groups. Conversely, the federal government seems to be quite generous in funding organizations that represent the interests of the English-speaking community.

In the past few months, the Townshippers' Association, which I respect, and the Quebec Anglophone Heritage Network received a whopping $1.5 million in funding, even though the English-speaking community in the Eastern Townships is thriving.

While the number of native English speakers dropped by 0.1% between 2016 and 2021, the number of people who speak English at home rose by 0.8 %. In other words, an English-speaking community outside Montreal—specifically, in the Eastern Townships—has the capacity to integrate people who have immigrated to Quebec. That illustrates what a strong pull the English language has in Quebec no matter where you are.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

This summer, you contacted me because you wanted to take part in the consultations on the modernization of the Official Languages Act.

I know you participated in the process. Did you get the sense that the government consulted French language organizations?

How was your experience?

[Étienne-Alexis Boucher]

The minister, Ms. Petitpas Taylor, organized two meetings in Quebec on the reform of the Official Languages Act.

I wasn't at the first meeting, but I was at the second. I can tell you that the Société nationale de l'Estrie and Droits collectifs Québec were the only French language organizations the minister had invited. Conversely, dozens of other organizations were in attendance, all experienced in furthering the interests of the English-speaking community.

In Quebec, the meeting took place entirely in English, until I, in my capacity as the president of the Société nationale de l'Estrie, and my colleague from Droits collectifs Québec spoke in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Mr. Boucher.

Last, but certainly not least, in this round is Ms. Ashton, from Manitoba.

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton. You have six minutes.