Official Languages Committee on Feb. 7th, 2022

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Is my time up already, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, it is, Mr. Dalton.

I admit that we all have interesting questions and that the answers are just as interesting.

The next speaker represents the next generation of francophone youth outside Quebec.

Arielle Kayabaga, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll start by thanking the witnesses, who have taken the time to meet with us today.

My first question is for Ms. Brouillette.

Ms. Brouillette, my question concerns the investments the government has already made, that is to say the $121.3 million, as well as the $80 million that has already been allocated. What impact has this money already had on our francophone minority post‑secondary institutions?

You also talked about money that has been frozen. Do you think that a catch‑up is currently taking place or that it should take place, knowing that the number of your schools is growing?

[Lynn Brouillette]

To answer your first question, we don't know yet what the impact of the $121.3 million has been, simply because the money has only just been released.

This funding was announced in the 2021 budget, and members of our association recently submitted proposals. They are waiting for answers about this funding, which is for this year and the next two years. I think the members of our association will have answers soon, in the coming days or even weeks.

Could you remind me of the second part of your question?

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Let me rephrase my question, which is about the current situation. What impact will this funding have on these institutions?

Given the growth in the number of schools, if you applied for funding three or four years ago, do you need to play catch‑up now?

[Lynn Brouillette]

As for the notion of catching up, I will echo what Mr. Lepage mentioned earlier. There is indeed some catching up to do. There is a reason why we are currently seeing this fragility in our network, and that's why some of our institutions are sounding the alarm. Several of their representatives came to testify before this committee.

There is a certain amount of chipping away that has taken place over time. We are at a critical point when we absolutely have to get adequate funding to support our institutions, not just for one‑time annual projects. We need core funding, which will allow institutions to solidify and then have the capacity to act in a minority context to support communities and meet their needs, especially as we emerge from the pandemic.

There has been a lot of upheaval in the labour market. We really want our institutions to have the capacity to put in place programs that will meet the needs of the labour market. We don't want to be in survival mode all the time. A conveyor belt was mentioned in terms of project funding. Core funding is needed to allow institutions to focus on a vision for the coming decades.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you very much for your answer.

As a mother living in a predominantly English‑speaking city, with a child attending a French‑language school, I would say that there is a lot of work to be done.

I would like to come back to the question that my colleague Mr. Iacono asked earlier.

Ms. Brouillette, what is the exact role of the provinces in all this?

This is a provincial issue. We have stepped up to provide funding. If there's catching up to do, it will take a lot of money to do it.

What is the role of the provinces in all this to support francophone schools in minority settings?

[Lynn Brouillette]

We're talking about schools, but it's kind of the same principle for colleges and universities. It must be understood that this is really a provincial jurisdiction, and that it's the provinces that have to free up funds for schools, colleges and universities.

The federal government can provide support through what could be called leveraged funds. This is more within its jurisdiction, which includes support for minority communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Brouillette.

Next up will be our second vice‑chair.

Mr. Beaulieu, go ahead for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'll quickly come back to my last question.

I've been told that immersion schools promote the assimilation of francophone students, in general.

Is it a good strategy to focus on increasing funding for immersion schools?

[Roger Lepage]

Thank you for the question.

We Franco‑Saskatchewanians are saying that we will be on the brink of extinction if a major project isn't set up by the federal government and the provinces to build more schools.

At the same time, as francophones in minority situations, we recognize that second‑language learning by the anglophone majority is very important. It creates allies, which can help us.

We must first ensure the survival and development of the francophone community. There isn't much point in someone speaking French as a second language if they can't speak it with anyone else. I think priority must certainly be given to French as a first language.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Exactly.

I think one of the big problems is the principle of “where numbers warrant”. Because of this principle, when there is a decline in French, funding is reduced rather than the opposite.

I think that, as part of the major agreement you were talking about, the initial situation should be recognized and some form of redress should be offered. So funding should be calculated on that basis, not on the basis of “where numbers warrant”.

I would now like to ask Ms. Brouillette a question.

Ms. Brouillette, we saw what happened with Campus Saint‑Jean, the University of Sudbury and Laurentian University. The University of Sudbury is trying to become a university by and for francophones.

Do you think we should try to encourage francophone universities in terms of funding?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Ms. Brouillette, you have 15 seconds to answer the question.

[Lynn Brouillette]

I think it is important that these decisions be made with communities that are able to express their needs and aspirations well.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much.

The next question will be asked by an MP from western Canada.

Ms. Ashton, you have two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to make a comment related to the question my colleague asked.

I learned French through an immersion program, and I think those programs need to be adequately funded. We must recognize that this funding is not only for language learning, but also for creating a Canadian identity. It also helps support francophone rights and francophone communities across the country.

That's why I'm a member of this committee. I'm one of those who believes that we must act as quickly as possible to protect the French language. All of this was made possible by my education in an immersion program.

Mr. Lepage, my question is on another topic. I want to focus on the lack of coercive powers to deal with violators of the Official Languages Act. For example, within the government, this is part of the mandate of Canadian Heritage, a department with minimal power to influence other departments. I would also like to add the problem related to the complaints process by the Commissioner of Official Languages, who lacks the means to act.

This is a picture of how important it is that the federal government respect the Official Languages Act.

What solutions would make it possible to show that the federal government takes official languages complaints seriously?

[Roger Lepage]

Thank you for the question.

I think the Official Languages Act should be amended to create a language rights tribunal that could rule on complaints about violations of the act.

The commissioner’s role in investigating, reporting and making recommendations can be retained. However, if a solution isn't reached, there must be the possibility of recourse to an entity with teeth. We need to be able to go to this language rights tribunal, which could make very well‑articulated decisions and have the means to order forms of redress for complainants. This tribunal would also have the power to impose penalties on respondents who often end up in court, such as Air Canada and others.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Lepage.

We'll now begin a five‑minute round of questions, starting with our first vice‑chair.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Lepage, I'd like to come back to your last comment, when you suggested that there be recourse with a little more teeth. I recognize that there's a problem with financial assistance programs, both at the federal and provincial levels. We're in decline when it comes to minority languages. There is no sense of will on the part of parliamentarians and society.

Regarding the extension of the 100‑day deadline for the tabling of the bill to modernize the Official Languages Act, you said the following in a Radio‑Canada report: “This reiterates the fact that the federal government does not take seriously the whole principle of two official languages in Canada and its obligation to take positive measures to enhance the vitality of the minority”.

That's also my reading of the current situation in Canada, and it has been for a number of years. You talked about the fact that in Saskatchewan, it was volunteers who preserved the French language. So you have to be determined to protect one of the two official languages.

I don't mind your idea of a constructive meeting between the provinces to reach a 10‑ to 20‑year agreement. Instead of opting for recourse with teeth and using the courts to advance the case, we must reach out to ensure that we can really decide whether we want Canada to have two official languages, that we give a place to both French and English. In minority situations, we must help the minority language. Canadian society needs to reflect on what we want for our country. Do we want to be constructive?

Ms. Brouillette, you're the backbone of colleges and universities. There was Laurentian University, then Campus Saint‑Jean. You don't have the means.

We need commitments from all decision‑makers.

I'd like to hear your comments on this, Mr. Lepage.

[Roger Lepage]

The federal government must take the lead with both official languages. It must work with the provinces and territories because, in a federation, there are two levels of government with responsibilities for education, particularly post-secondary education. The federal government's spending power means that it can come to our assistance.

The Official Languages Act requires the federal government to take positive measures to enhance the vitality of the official languages. Clearly, when it is partly funding education for the francophone minority and for immersion schools, it must therefore work with the provinces.

I feel that those two levels of government must come to an agreement on a plan, lasting from 10 to 20 years, to refine the program of primary, secondary and post-secondary schools, as well as daycares. As I said, taxpayers don't give a hoot whether the federal level or the provincial level pays for it, because, in one way or another, all the money comes out of their pockets anyway. We just want it to be effective. We don't want to be taking one step at a time or doing one thing at a time.

Currently, to a considerable extent, the provinces and territories have no intention of supporting their minority francophone communities. I can say that this is the case in Saskatchewan, in Alberta and in British Columbia, where there is great reluctance to come to the assistance of the francophone minority. They are trying to hand that responsibility over to the federal government.

I am asking the Liberal government to show some leadership, to bring together all the provinces and territories and then to hold a conference dealing specifically with francophone minorities outside Quebec, in order to see what must be done to solve this problem.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Lepage.

I feel that the issue goes further than that: do we want a bilingual country or a unilingual one? If we want a unilingual country, let's do what needs to be done. But as long as this is a bilingual country, I personally will be standing up and defending the minorities and the French fact.

As you mentioned, the English language is not in difficulty. The French language is. So I feel that the responsibility—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I am sorry for interrupting you, Mr. Godin.

We are going to move on to the final participant in this third round, which will bring the time for questions to a close. Then, my dear colleagues, we are going to have to deal with the budget.

The final questions will be from our favourite Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Official Languages, Marc Serré.

Mr. Serré, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I am the only Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Official Languages, Mr. Chair, but thank you for saying that I am your favourite one.

My thanks to the witnesses for joining us today. It was very interesting.

I understand their frustrations about post-secondary education, especially in terms of provinces like British Columbia, Saskatchewan, Alberta, and even Ontario. They are not living up to their constitutional obligations to their minority francophone communities. I understand that and I agree that they always turn to the federal government to snap our fingers and fix everything.

Ms. Brouillette, you mentioned earlier that the funding has not worked in the past and that your members have confirmed that for you. Then, you said that the funding had increased by $121 million and, for the first time, the funding was permanent. How can you say that it is not working? The funding has increased and it is permanent.

I hear from the Government of Alberta that the Campus Saint-Jean will be able to use that funding. I hear from the province of Ontario that it is going to be able to use the funding.

So I would like your comments on the matter, because what I am hearing from those two provinces does not coincide with what you are saying.

[Lynn Brouillette]

Thank you for the question.

I would like to clarify that what is not working at the moment is the mechanism by which the funding is distributed. The funding for post-secondary educational institutions under the OLEP have been frozen for a number of years, at least two decades. However, some of that funding still provides support for schools and for post-secondary educational institutions.

As I said, the problem really lies with the distribution mechanism, which is why I am happy to be able to talk to you today. Before the program became permanent, doubling in value and providing $121 million over three years, or $40 million per year, we were promised that it would be $80 million per year.

Before the program actually becomes permanent, we are asking for an in‑depth review of the funding distribution mechanism, because it is causing a lot of problems. Consequently, the institutions are not able to do any long-term planning because the funding is only project-based. That's one of the important factors to keep in mind.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Excellent.

The work is being done and we will continue to work on that issue.

Ms. Brouillette and Mr. Lepage, you have been talking about catching up and about promoting French, about the role and the leadership of the federal government. But do you have any figures for us? Currently, when the provinces want to play the federal government's role, they want the money but they don't want any agreements or any criteria. That causes difficulties in terms of the way in which the provinces spend the money.

When you talk about catching up and promoting French in minority situations, how much would be necessary to reach parity in a bilingual country, as Mr. Godin was saying? Are we talking about $1 billion, $5 billion, $10 billion?

Have you looked at the statistics? Currently, with the provinces playing the federal government's role, but not being at the table for any discussions, the federal government has to pay for everything, as certain provinces want us to do.

How much are we talking about? We certainly have a role to play, but the provinces do not seem to want to play theirs.