Official Languages Committee on Feb. 14th, 2022

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Why do you say 90% and 10%?

[Frédéric Lacroix]

We rounded the 8% to 10%. Strictly speaking, the figures should be 92% and 8%.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Okay.

Can you tell us a bit more about the concept of institutional completeness?

Why does this overfunding have an impact on the status of French?

[Frédéric Lacroix]

Institutional completeness is a concept that was invented by Raymond Breton, a sociologist at the University of Toronto. He had found that the vitality of a community's language was tied to the breadth of its institutional network.

If this concept is applied to francophones outside Quebec, the fact that they have few French language high schools and almost no French language universities—apart from in Moncton—has a very negative impact on their vitality. Assimilation occurs when francophones leave high school and decide upon a program of studies. Many choose English as a language of instruction and the process of assimilation begins.

This can apply to Quebec as well, where the anglophone community has an institutional network funded at a level that exceeds their demographic weight by a factor of three. This enables them to assimilate a large number of allophones. Indeed, anglophones in Quebec assimilate approximately half of allophones, even though the community accounts for only 8.1% of the population.

Institutional completeness is a key concept for understanding how a community's linguistic vitality is related to money, which is to say funding.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

At a previous meeting, we received the Vice-President of the Public Service Alliance of Canada - Quebec, who told us that even in Quebec, systemic discrimination was deeply rooted in the federal system, which means that we can take it for granted that everything happens in English first and only then in French.

How do you see it?

[Frédéric Lacroix]

I am not an expert on the federal public service in Quebec, but from what I've heard, English is the language of work used most often, which ought not to be the case in Quebec. For many francophones, the freedom to choose their language of work in the federal public service in Quebec is an illusion.

The federal public service is also subject to unequal or competitive bilingualism. For me, this is a very serious problem for the vitality of French in Quebec. The federal government is therefore actively contributing to diminishing the vitality of French in Quebec.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Earlier on, Mr. Blackburn spoke about some problems related to the modernization of the act. Among other things, he mentioned that the Quebec bill to strengthen Bill 101 would apply to federally regulated organizations, but that Bill C‑32 would give companies the option to comply with Bill 101 or with the Official Languages Act, which will also create confusion.

How is that supposed to work?

I'd like to hear your comments first, Mr. Lacroix, and then Mr. Blackburn's.

[Frédéric Lacroix]

I think that companies can already choose whether or not to comply with the Charter of the French Language. In my view, the problem is that it's a option. Bill 101 should apply to federally regulated undertakings, period. It shouldn't be a matter of choice.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have a minute left, Mr. Beaulieu.

[Karl Blackburn]

I'll make a brief comment and then give the floor to my colleague Mr. Hamel.

In a recent survey that we conducted with our members, federally regulated businesses were already mostly complying with the French-language requirements under the Quebec act. That being the case, they had no problem with continuing to do so. Most of the problems were for small businesses, because of the administrative burden and the complexity of doing things in specific ways in Quebec and federally, which could make the process more complex.

Perhaps Mr. Hamel could contribute some additional statistically based details.

[Denis Hamel]

I'll be brief.

We do indeed have concerns about the two jurisdictions, particularly with respect to annual reports and complaints.

In more than 80% of cases, federally regulated businesses already comply with the Official Languages Act. The legislation of both levels of government needs to be harmonized to keep businesses from feeling squeezed between two different administrative burdens, neither of which takes precedence over the other.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Hamel.

I'm sorry to interrupt, but those are the rules.

The next speaker is Ms. Niki Ashton of Manitoba.

Ms. Ashton, over to you for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks to all the witnesses for their testimony.

I would particularly like to thank the representatives of the Société de la francophonie manitobaine, an organization we are very proud of here in Manitoba.

Ms. Cassie, the Société de la francophonie manitobaine criticized the calculation method used to determine the number francophones living in minority communities.

As part of the modernization of the Official Languages Act, should the definition of what constitutes a francophone be reviewed, along with the calculation method, with a view to coming up with statistics that better reflect reality?

[Angela Cassie]

I'll give a brief overview, and then let Mr. Boucher handle the details.

As a francophile, I believe that the definition of the term “francophone” is a very important aspect of our identity. It strengthens the vitality of our community.

I believe that the definition of the term “francophone” requires a rethink as it relates to the language spoken at home. The importance of, and interest in, immersion programs should also be recognized, and we have to determine how we can continue to contribute to the vitality of individuals and families who choose French as their second language and their language of instruction. We also need to make sure that they can have access to support services and programs.

Do you have anything to add, Mr. Boucher?

[Daniel Boucher, Executive Director, Société de la francophonie manitobaine]

This has always been a major problem for us. We would like Canada to recognize communities for what they are in terms of identity. Over the years, the community in Manitoba has developed significantly with newcomers, francophiles, if we can use that term, people who really have an identity and a sense of belonging to the community.

A few years ago, we even took the federal government to court over a number of Official Languages Act regulations. The purpose was specifically to clarify this issue and enlarge the pool of francophones and the definition of “francophone”. We even succeeded in introducing a regulation that will greatly help to improve the provision of services in French and expand the concept of francophone identity.

The people who decide to settle in our province come from just about everywhere around the world. We have had presidents from Africa, who were not acknowledged as members of our community in a way that I would call legal. For us, that's unacceptable.

We went to battle to change the definition of francophone identity in censuses and to make improvements to the delivery of services in our francophone communities throughout Manitoba.

I hope that our efforts have been positive and that all these initiatives will be reflected in the new version of the Official Languages Act, a modernized version.

My hope is that we will have moved this dialogue forward.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

My next question is for both of you.

We know that there is a shortage of French-language teaching staff in Manitoba, from early childhood onward. I'm basing that on my own experience here in Thompson.

And if there isn't a staff shortage, then it's the number of spaces available that is problematic in French schools, and it becomes difficult to enrol all the children.

The federal government has not indexed transfers for French education for years, and funds are hard to access.

What role could educational institutions play in slowing the decline of French in the communities?

[Daniel Boucher]

I could give a partial answer to this question.

As it happens, last week the province of Manitoba took another step forward by implementing a project we had been requesting for a long time. The province agreed to add a significant amount of funding to the French immersion program and to the francophone education system to train teachers. It's a step in the right direction, even though it's only one step.

I believe that we are all responsible for taking concrete action if we want to have the infrastructures required to give courses in French, and I'm pleased to be able to say a few words about the French-language school here in Thompson. For those who are not familiar with Manitoba's geography, I can tell you that's quite an achievement for the province.

Our goal has always been to ensure that we have the resources required, and to work together. In Manitoba, we have an education continuum, from early childhood to postsecondary education. That's important.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Boucher and Ms. Ashton.

We are now starting the next round of questions.

Mr. Gourde, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for their testimony. It's truly interesting.

Mr. Blackburn, I'm very interested in the issue of the economic Francophonie. You mentioned that you had signed an agreement to promote the economic Francophonie around the world and spoke at length about the potential this represents.

With which countries have you signed this agreement?

With which countries or continents are we likely to be moving forward in the near future.

How can our companies know which sectors will be most prosperous in the future: primary, secondary or tertiary?

If you could give us some guidance, it could prove to be interesting for our entrepreneurs.

[Karl Blackburn]

Thank you very much for your question, Mr. Gourde.

It allows me to make a further point about just how keen the Conseil du patronat du Québec is on the economic Francophonie.

To begin with, we signed a development agreement for the economic Francophonie with 29 other francophone areas around the world, including France and Brussels, of course, but also with countries in Africa, the Maghreb, and Morocco. We got several countries from North Africa, East Africa and southern Africa to come on board with the economic Francophonie, which is an economic leveraging mechanism that, as I mentioned in my presentation, resembles the Commonwealth, but for the Francophonie.

There are at the moment approximately 300 million francophones around the world. In 2060, the number of francophones will be over 500 million, with an average age of under 30 years. That, I'm sure you'll agree, represents enormous growth potential.

In Canada, we are facing demographic issues, particularly in Quebec.

There are people here from various parts of Canada, but in Quebec, we have an extremely serious problem, the curve for our aging population. In 2011, one of every six people were 65 years of age or older. In 2031, only a few years from now, it will be one in four. The labour shortages that we all know about will be amplified, in keeping with our demographic curve.

In what sectors can the potential of the Francophonie help us? Well, it can help us in various ways, in fields like information technology, video games, health care, the manufacturing industry, education, and health training. All of these sectors Mr. Gourde, have strong potential.

For example, we could forge strong and interesting ties with francophone countries whose population curve is younger than ours, to address training needs. Trainers in these countries could come here, and ours could go elsewhere. Thus there are societal challenges which, when linked to their younger demographic curve, could represent opportunities for us in Quebec and Canada. And our societal challenges resulting from our older demographic curve could represent opportunities for these countries.

There is real and extremely interesting growth potential. But something needs to be done about it, and that is what the Conseil du patronat intends to do. We have already made extremely strong commitments in terms of demographic growth and the economic Francophonie, and that's only the beginning. I'm convinced that the potential of the Francophonie is extremely important to all the technology sectors, whatever they may be, and in every region of Quebec, Mr. Gourde.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you very much. You're very inspiring.

I'd like to speak to the witnesses from Manitoba about something that saddens me.

A great deal of effort has been made in elementary, postsecondary, college and university education to promote French-language instruction. However, once students enter the workforce they lose their proficiency in French after three, four, or five years.

Would there be a way of offering French-language workshops or otherwise motivating these young workers to continue to practise their French? What's happened is that we have invested enormously in the francophone regions in the West, because lots of people wanted to learn French. But unfortunately, it doesn't take long for them to lose their proficiency in the language.

[Angela Cassie]

That, in fact, is the reason why we have cultural institutions like the Centre culturel franco-manitobain, Théâtre Cercle Molière, and other similar organizations. We established them so that people could live in French when the work day is done.

And then there are the courses available at the Université de Saint-Boniface and the Alliance française du Manitoba. They too are important for the francophone communities. We believe that investment in French-language programming and in our cultural and francophone institutions is very important if we are to live in French once our work day is done.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Cassie.

Over to Ms. Arielle Kayabaga now, for the next questions.

Ms. Kayabaga, you have five minutes.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to begin by thanking the witnesses and sending my regards to Ms. Cassie. I'm happy to see her again.

My first question is for all the witnesses.

Mr. Lacroix spoke about immigration and its contribution to the growth of the francophone community in Quebec and across Canada.

Given that 60% of francophones are in Africa, and especially West Africa, what would you suggest the committee could do to change the context of discrimination surrounding the immigration of African francophones?

[Frédéric Lacroix]

Can I be the first to answer?