Official Languages Committee on Sept. 27th, 2023

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to welcome the witnesses.

I want to go back to the question that our Bloc Québécois colleague asked earlier regarding integrating francophones in non-bilingual communities. I'm going to ask it in a different way because I think it's important to continue demonstrating Canada's bilingualism. That means we should also strengthen the minority language communities.

My colleague suggested that it was a bad thing to integrate francophones in non-bilingual communities and that it might cause problems. I have a different take on this.

Ms. Veronis, don't you think it's a good idea to continue strengthening minority language communities and for bilingualism in Canada to endure. I'd like you to comment on that.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

I agree absolutely. Immigrants are often drawn to regions that are quiet, near nature and in small tightly knitted regions, somewhat like village communities where everyone knows, speaks to and supports everyone else. Those communities have a lot to offer.

This gives me an opportunity to talk about the idea of forming immigrant groups. The idea isn't to have single, isolated individuals settling in these communities. Instead, we should consider involving an entire community, a group of 100 persons, for example. We've seen this in the case of the Syrian refugees when an entrepreneur brought in 100 refugees.

So we should create communities. That of course raises challenges. I'm speaking theoretically here; I don't know how this can be implemented. Instead of having one family that's all alone and doesn't know what to do, you have to have a group and do what was done during the resettlement of the Syrian refugees when people mobilized. Sponsoring, support and networks all worked well. I think we can draw on the example of New Brunswick and the refugees it took in. We should expand that type of support to all francophone immigrants.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

It would be a very serious mistake not to reinforce capacities in minority-language communities.

Mr. Normand, what percentage of all francophone immigrants does your student body represent?

[Martin Normand]

The most recent figures that we have date back to before the pandemic. Based on what we've heard from our institutions, the situation has vastly changed since September 2022. We'll have to conduct a new data collection.

However, although I don't know the exact percentage offhand, there are approximately 5,000 international students in our network of 22 institutions every year, which represents a lot of graduates annually. We're talking about 1,000 to 2,000 international students who graduate per year.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

Do you know what percentage of those francophone immigrant students are African students?

[Martin Normand]

I'm talking about students who have been accepted at our institutions. We don't have data on those who apply for permanent residence. That's harder to determine once they've left our institutions.

However, the vast majority of international students in our institutional network come from Africa. The main countries that the international students at our institutions come from are countries such as Senegal, Congo, Cameroon and Ivory Coast. France and the entire European pool are very far down the list of francophone international students who come to study in our institutional network. We're told that francophone European students are more inclined to come to Canada to learn English. Consequently, it's more difficult to attract them to our institutions, even though it's possible to learn English there. Once again, the vast majority of international students are African.

[Arielle Kayabaga, Liberal, London West, ON]

We should also note that the largest pool of francophones in the entire world is in Africa. I don't have much time left, but I'm going to ask you another question. What resources do you have at your disposal to help students succeed and continue living in French?

[Martin Normand]

As Ms. Veronis suggested a little earlier, once they arrive on campus, our first job is obviously to make potential applicants aware of the reality of our institutions so they understand the reality of the communities where they will be settling—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Mr. Normand, please wrap up.

[Martin Normand]

All right.

The institutions do it and we can come back to that. I noted the support we provide for academic success and employability in my remarks. The international student clubs on our campuses can also do a lot of support work.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you, Ms. Kayabaga.

Now it's the turn of Mr. Beaulieu, who has two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'd like to go back to what my Liberal colleague said. We discussed the importance of targeting immigration where there's a concentration of francophones. That doesn't mean there'll be no francophone immigration elsewhere. Research, such as that of Charles Castonguay, has shown that, outside New Brunswick and in eastern and northeastern Ontario, francophone immigrants are quickly being anglicized starting in the first generation because they wind up in anglophone communities. What do you think of that?

In any case, the new language bill provides for a form of territoriality for federally regulated private businesses. It's already in force in Quebec and will help promote French. Strong francophone regions will be designated outside Quebec. I think that's necessarily what we're coming to. I don't want to start a fight, but I think it's having very real consequences, and, if you remain dogmatic, you'll see what happens: a decline in French everywhere.

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

I think anglicization is hard to avoid because English is often the language of work. In my opinion, you have to retain French as the spoken language of the family and community participation. You can't avoid English.

I've often advocated francization for anglophones. That's the way to go. Anglophones are more open today. You can see that in the popularity of immersion programs.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

However, the data somewhat contradict that. There is virtually no increase in the number of anglophones who speak French. Bilingualism is increasing mainly in Quebec.

I have a brief question. Quebec is still a major market for francophone culture and a significant source of teachers. If you promote francophone immigration outside Quebec, you undermine francophone immigration to Quebec. Won't that be counterproductive?

[Dr. Luisa Veronis]

That's a tough question. You also have to acknowledge the ties among immigrants. Some arrive in Quebec and then settle in Ontario, in our region, while other francophone immigrants arrive in Ontario and settle in Quebec. Once they're here, they're free.

As for having separate francophone immigrations, Quebec can also serve as a model. Perhaps francophone immigration should be controlled by the provinces rather than the federal government.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you, Ms. Veronis.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I'd like to talk about education, a sector where, as we know, labour is in considerable demand. Early childhood and the primary and secondary grades are affected. I live in western Canada, where there are waiting lists everywhere for day care centres, immersion and French-language education. Families that want their children to be educated in French are desperate. The options aren't what they should be as a result of the labour shortage.

Do you think that the immigration system, in its present state, is able to address those issues?

Since this committee is focusing on recommendations that we can make to the federal government, I'd like to know what you think we should do to improve coordination and provide a more appropriate response to this situation, which is of considerable concern to the country, particularly in western Canada.

Mr. Normand, perhaps you can be the first to answer. Ms. Veronis could do so as well.

[Martin Normand]

Yes, I can answer your question. Thank you.

First, I would suggest that we make sure a language lens is included in IRCC's immigration programs. I'll explain why. In recent years, during the pandemic, a program was available under which the transition from temporary to permanent residence could be expedited. The program included very narrow criteria under which certain professions could be excluded. We're talking here about professions that, in the case of communities, were facing significant labour shortages, but that weren't necessarily affected by the same shortages in the anglophone communities.

A national assessment of labour needs was conducted but didn't consider the linguistic context, thus excluding certain professions. The profession of early childhood educator is one of those that was excluded. People who were working in that field here in Canada and who held a temporary permit were unable to access permanent residence under the program. That situation was due, in particular, to issues involved in creating the programs.

Furthermore, you might think that, to increase the number of teachers who teach French or who teach in that language, you'd have to rely on the support of postsecondary institutions. However, the provinces often limit the number of students who may be admitted to certain programs or faculties. Those programs are therefore subject to quotas. To increase the number of international students in those disciplines to address labour shortages, you have to ensure that there are spaces at the institutions and adequate funding to increase the number of spaces there.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Joël Godin]

Thank you.

If any other members wish to ask you questions, you may answer them later, Ms. Veronis.

I now turn the floor over to Ms. Goodridge, for five minutes.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Good evening, everyone. Thanks to the witnesses.

I'd like to mention that the Conservative leader has proposed adopting the so‑called "blue seal" standard, which would serve as a national standard. The credentials of persons who practise a health profession and were trained outside Canada could thus be recognized sooner. I'm now coming to my question.

Mr. Viglione, do you think that a national examination standard such as the “blue seal”, would enable a larger number of francophone immigrants to settle in Canada and practise their professions?

[Francesco Viglione]

That could be a very good solution.

As I said earlier, people are being blocked even if they have the credentials. So I definitely think that a standard like the “blue seal” would be useful in the case of individuals trained in the medical field outside Canada. Yes, I believe that would increase francophone immigration to Canada.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you very much.

You mentioned the dynamism of francophone immigration in the minority communities. I'm a francophone who first enrolled in French immersion and then went on to postsecondary studies in French in Alberta. Many people don't know there's a dynamic francophone community in Alberta, Saskatchewan and across the Prairies in general. You mentioned that in one of your answers.

How do you think the Government of Canada could do a better job of spreading out the francophone minority population?

[Francesco Viglione]

Personally, I'm very much in favour of promoting francophone immigration. Consequently, I believe that awareness and information campaigns should be introduced to attract qualified francophone immigrants to minority communities. I'm opposed to the idea of concentrating all francophones in one place and all anglophones in another. On the contrary, I'm very much in favour of mixing the two.

Two weeks ago, I went to a francophone conference that drew attendees from all Canadian provinces, and we discussed at length ways of attracting large numbers of francophones to minority communities. Our association is therefore doing some serious thinking so we can present something to the federal government.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Do you have any specific suggestions to make? If we had all the money in the world and a magic wand, how could we improve matters?

[Francesco Viglione]

As a foreigner and an immigrant, I lived in Luxembourg, where they speak three languages. I also lived in Switzerland, where they also speak three languages. What shocks me the most in Canada today is that you have to choose between anglophone and francophone schools, whereas citizens of other countries speak two or three languages, study English and mathematics in English, history in French, geography in Italian and so on. As an immigrant, I find it shocking at times when people in Canada tell me they can't mix anglophone and francophone children, particularly in day care facilities. I find that quite disturbing.

I think we already have a potential solution. We should explore ways to reunify anglophones and francophones rather than continue to separate them.