Official Languages Committee on Feb. 15th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting to order.

I'd like to welcome everyone attending in person or by videoconference to meeting number 87 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3) and the motion adopted by the committee on September 20, 2023, the committee is meeting to resume its study on the economic development of official language minority communities.

Normally, I give instructions for those on videoconference, but since we are now used to applications like Zoom or Teams, I will skip that. However, I would like to remind you to mute your microphone when you are not speaking, and to unmute it when I give you the floor.

In accordance with our routine motion concerning sound checks, I wish to inform the committee that all witnesses have completed the required tests in advance of the meeting.

I'd like to welcome our witnesses today. As an individual, we have Patrick Dupuis. From the Conseil économique du Nouveau-Brunswick—one of the most beautiful provinces, of course—we have president and chief executive officer Gaëtan Thomas.

To our guests, you have five minutes each for your opening remarks. Then we'll go to an interactive exchange of questions and answers, and I'll be firm on the time to allow everybody to ask questions.

Mr. Dupuis, we'll start with you.

[Patrick Dupuis, As an Individual]

Good morning.

My name is Patrick Dupuis and I own a cheese factory in Alberta. We've been in business since 2015. We went through a lot of ups and downs, as everyone did, including the pandemic and the recession and everything else that went along with that. During that time, we were able to grow our business and expand it a little more into the Alberta market and into western Canada.

Today, I want to talk to you about the resources available to increase the economic potential of francophone businesses and owners in rural Alberta. As I said, we've been in business for eight years. It's a small family business and there are only five of us, including myself and my daughter, who is about to take over the business.

That's pretty much what I have to say. I look forward to your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Dupuis. I think it's pretty early where you are.

[Patrick Dupuis]

Yes, it's 6:21 a.m.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you for participating in this exercise.

I will now give the floor to Mr. Thomas.

[Gaëtan Thomas, President and Chief Executive Officer, Conseil économique du Nouveau-Brunswick]

Good morning.

Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you this morning on behalf of the Conseil économique du Nouveau-Brunswick.

As president and CEO of the Conseil, I represent 600 members, including all francophone municipalities in New Brunswick and, of course, the Université de Moncton, the Collège communautaire du Nouveau-Brunswick, as well as all the drivers of economic development.

I would like to begin by putting you in context. Often, francophone minority communities in the regions, especially rural ones, find themselves at a disadvantage compared to urban centres. Policies in the three urban centres of Moncton, Fredericton and Saint John tend to centralize more and more. Right now, only two people speak French in the New Brunswick cabinet. Because of this lack of representation, decisions on how to manage and distribute services are becoming more and more centralized.

We're really moving away from the concept of equal opportunity for all, the program of social reforms that was so well defined and implemented in the 1960s by the former premier of New Brunswick Louis J. Robichaud. This concept made bilingualism an economic strength in New Brunswick, and it's an advantage that some anglophones in the province are still unable to recognize.

People in rural areas are increasingly moving to urban centres for a number of reasons, including employment opportunities and high-speed Internet access. At least we still have housing, even if it's not always affordable. On the other hand, as the population declines in the northern part of the province, the gross domestic product of that region declines to the benefit of southern New Brunswick, but this is not new money for the province. As a result, some northern schools are closing, and new schools are being built for more than what they cost in the past. That's not to mention all the problems that this causes in urban centres, which sometimes grow too fast. This is particularly the case in Moncton, where we see homelessness, crime, poverty, mental health problems, and so on.

In terms of the market, the nature of capitalism is such that real estate developers are building mostly in urban settings, which makes it more profitable for them. However, we have a labour shortage, and it's much more difficult to attract francophone immigrants to the regions. It's always been that way.

Uniform government policy does not promote regional economic development, and the situation is even worse for rural regions.

Immigration is essential if we want our regions to survive. As a result, I would like to talk a little about the policy recently announced by the Minister of Immigration, which provides for changes that don't take into consideration the specific immigration challenges francophone minority communities face. I hope that the Standing Committee on Official Languages will work hard to ensure that the obligations in the new version of the Official Languages Act that came out of Bill C‑13 will be met. I trust in Mr. Arseneault, who has committed to doing everything in his power to avoid putting us at a disadvantage.

However, we're still concerned, because we are in the midst of dealing with international students who want to come and study in New Brunswick and we've already invited them to do so. However, the process is long and complex, and we're quite concerned about it. For example, the Department of Immigration tells us that it's using a 60% conversion rate, but the best rate the Collège communautaire du Nouveau-Brunswick ever achieved was 36% in 2023. If the new policy is implemented, we fear an even sharper decline in student enrolment, because the success vs. supply ratio is much lower in francophone rural areas.

This is another example of a policy focused on urban issues, like those we sometimes see in the Toronto area, which is experiencing all kinds of problems. However, we need to make sure that we don't end up with one-size-fits-all solutions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have 15 seconds, Mr. Thomas.

[Gaëtan Thomas]

Okay.

I would ask you to look at what can be done.

For example, it would be good if we could recognize how immigrants' knowledge can help the New Brunswick market. It's a responsibility the province has committed to taking on. The recent policy should also be amended to ensure that francophone minorities are protected. Finally, I believe that, as the only bilingual province in the country, New Brunswick should be responsible for managing its immigration, like Quebec is currently doing.

Thank you for hearing me this morning.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Thomas. You will be able to say more when you answer questions.

Mr. Dupuis and Mr. Thomas, I believe this is the first time you've appeared before the Standing Committee on Official Languages. So let me explain to you how we operate. For the first round of questions, each political party will have six minutes to ask questions and hear your answers. These are interactive questions, so you can expand on what you were saying.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here. We know that for some people it's not the same time as it is here.

Mr. Chair, before we go any further, I'd like you to stop the clock because I'm going to move a motion.

On September 20, 2023, we adopted the motion that the committee invite the Minister of Official Languages, the Minister of Canadian Heritage and the President of the Treasury Board to appear as soon as possible to discuss their mandate and priorities in their portfolios, as well as their plans. Unfortunately, we learned in committee that Minister of Canadian Heritage Pascale St-Onge declined the committee's invitation. She is one of the ministers mentioned in the bill to modernize the Official Languages Act, which received royal assent last June. I would therefore like to move the following motion and for the committee to take a position on it:

That the committee reports to the House its disappointment at the refusal of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, the Honourable Pascale St-Onge, to testify before the committee regarding her mandate and priorities with respect to official languages, as well as her obligations in connection with the implementation of the Act to amend the Official Languages Act, to enact the Use of French in Federally Regulated Private Businesses Act and to make related amendments to other Acts.

This is important, Mr. Chair. We already know the minister's answer, which is that she has delegated her authority, but—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, allow me to interrupt you for a moment to explain to the witnesses what is happening.

The rules of parliamentary procedure allow members of standing committees to interrupt the proceedings of a committee to move a motion. That is what's happening right now. The witnesses should therefore not feel personally targeted, because it doesn't concern them. That's all I wanted to say.

Mr. Godin, you may continue to speak to your motion.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you for clarifying that, Mr. Chair.

I would say to our witnesses that yes, it's a matter of procedure. Don't worry, I will ask you questions later.

So I will come back to what I was saying. The Minister of Canadian Heritage will say that she has delegated her authority to the Minister of Official Languages, but that minister is not mentioned in the act. When you delegate authority, you still have to be responsible. The department that has delegated authority to the Minister of Official Languages must still explain and be accountable. That's one reason we wanted to hear from the Minister of Canadian Heritage here at the Standing Committee on Official Languages. Unfortunately, she refuses to appear, and I would dare say that she is like Pontius Pilate and is washing her hands of it, which is unacceptable to all Canadians, especially official language minority communities.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Serré, you have the floor.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Mr. Chair, we wish to propose an amendment to Mr. Godin's motion. We can send it to all members.

Several ministers have already appeared before the committee. We asked Minister St-Onge to come and testify, but normally, the committee can follow the process a little more closely. I therefore move that the motion be amended by adding the following after the words “in the House”: “instructs the Chair to write to the Minister of Canadian Heritage, the Hon. Pascale St-Onge, to express". I also move to delete the words “reports to the House”, the word “the”, and the words “of the Minister of Canadian Heritage, the Honourable Pascale St-Onge”.

So the committee could agree to ask the Chair to send that letter and, if the minister doesn't come, we can adopt Mr. Godin's motion. It's a matter of following procedure. It would be more appropriate to send her a letter, because I don't think that was done.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Serré.

The clerk advises me that it has already been sent.

Mrs. Goodridge, I'll turn it over to you.

[Laila Goodridge, Conservative, Fort McMurray—Cold Lake, AB]

Thank you very much.

I take note of Mr. Serré's attempt to send a letter to the minister, but frankly, this has been going on for a long time. If the minister doesn't know, it's not the committee's fault. We really need to have the minister in front of us to talk to her. This is really important. I suggest that everyone vote against Mr. Serré's amendment and in favour of Mr. Godin's motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mrs. Goodridge.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

I'd like to come back to my colleague's comment about procedure. I think that we in the Conservative Party of Canada have followed procedure. You even testified to that in front of the witnesses.

As my colleague mentioned, I call for a vote on Mr. Serré's amendment so that we can go ahead and question the witnesses. Actually, I should say “ask them questions”, because perhaps “question" sounds more punitive, like we're dealing with criminals. I know that they are allies. So, after we vote, we can ask our witnesses questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Go ahead, Mr. Samson.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

From the comments we heard earlier, I understood that a letter has already been sent. Is that correct?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

In fact, that referred to the amendment moved by Mr. Serré being emailed to committee members. We should have received it at our MP addresses.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Okay.

I thought a new letter had been sent to the minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

No.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I am in favour of writing a letter to the minister. However, I would like the letter to ask the minister to reconsider her decision and see if she can find time in her schedule to appear before the committee.

If we report to the House, at this point it would be playing politics. However, if we send a letter to the minister asking her to reconsider her decision, I feel that would be a much more collaborative way of working with her. It must be understood that the legislation resulting from Bill C‑13 is new and certain responsibilities have now come into effect, as my colleague mentioned.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor.