Official Languages Committee on Feb. 29th, 2024

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

That's that.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Godin, you have five seconds left.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Commissioner, you're always welcome at the committee. Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, thank you very much for being here with us today with your team. As you know, your role is very important, not only to the machinery of government, but also to the committee. That's why we always appreciate your opinions and advice.

I'll start with a sentence from your letter: “Leaders must lead by example”. I think this sentence is very important because it contextualizes the situation in which we find ourselves. When I read that bit, I immediately thought of Mr. Rousseau and Air Canada, and it really pained me, because he was not someone who led wisely, in my opinion. That was very obvious. I'm very proud of our government for being able to react quickly, not stand for that and say that changes had to be made.

Back to my questions. There are three things I'm very interested in: deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers who have already been appointed, new ones, and those awaiting appointment. I'm going to ask you a number of questions, and you can address them in any order you wish.

What do we do about deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers who are already on the job but don't meet the bilingualism requirements? Should they be assigned to departments that are less involved in the application of the Official Languages Act? Under Bill C‑13, the new Official Languages Act, I find it unacceptable that these people can continue to hold such positions. What is your opinion on that?

[Raymond Théberge]

The new act is more about the future than the present situation. Anyone currently in a position is protected, and I don't really see how their employment conditions could be changed. Instead, we have to make sure this doesn't happen in the future, because senior leaders play a significant role. If they don't speak both official languages, I guarantee that their employees will work in only one of the two official languages, not both.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Commissioner. If I were a minister, I would make appointments myself, but I accept the answer you gave the committee.

Now, let's talk about new hires. Sometimes we're told that a unilingual person was hired because nobody meeting the bilingualism requirements was found. That's what the RCMP folks said. To me, that's unacceptable. I told them that, if they can't find a bilingual person and have to hire a unilingual person in an emergency or for security reasons, the position should never be given to that person on a permanent basis. Instead, they should hold the position temporarily until the right person is found. Everyone must comply with the Official Languages Act, whether they agree with it or not.

[Raymond Théberge]

If the duties related to a position require bilingualism, the person occupying the position must be bilingual. If they do not meet that criterion, they have to go on training, and the person acting for them must be bilingual.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Yes, exactly. However, the RCMP said those people aren't required to take courses, even after they're appointed. I would therefore encourage you to include this very important point in your report.

Now let's talk about the pool of executives awaiting appointment. In principle, the people in that pool meet the hiring criteria for senior management positions, including bilingualism. So how do people who don't meet that requirement end up in that pool? Are they in the wrong pool, like when I end up in the wrong track while I'm skiing? What's going on?

[Raymond Théberge]

All ADMs who are already in the pool of candidates within the federal government have achieved adequate bilingual proficiency. They already meet that criterion. However, people are often appointed from outside the federal government, from the private sector.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Théberge.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Organizations never really complied with the former act because political will was lacking. Do you think there's political will to enforce the new act? The government already seems to be doing the opposite.

[Raymond Théberge]

I'm an optimist by nature; otherwise, I wouldn't be here. We have to give it a chance. The bill was passed less than a year ago. Things are happening right now. Implementing this new act is quite complex for the Office of the Commissioner and for other federal institutions. There is an enormous amount of work to be done within the federal government in terms of promotion and compliance.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

We've been seeing fewer and fewer bilingual people—that is, people who speak French—getting political appointments. That doesn't bode well at all. Do you think you should be more assertive or do more to rectify the situation? You're working on it, but I get the impression that not much has changed in the past 50 years: The Commissioner of Official Languages complains, but not much changes.

[Raymond Théberge]

Indeed, incrementalism is a very slow way to effect change.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Let me briefly go back to what the previous speaker was saying about the fact that senior officials, among others, have to be bilingual. Unilingual people are allowed to get training. Shouldn't that be done ahead of time?

As my colleague said, people shouldn't get these jobs until they've completed their training and passed their exam. Moreover, if there are no qualified candidates who are proficient in French, people should get training, and the exam results should be taken into account before the position is awarded.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Beaulieu, thank you for your comments, but your time is up.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Commissioner, I'd like to talk more about the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. You talked about the organization's culture. When Commissioner Duheme appeared before our committee, he said, “we have struggled at times in ensuring our full compliance with the act”.

We're concerned about that culture and the organization's capacity. We all remember the extreme weather events in the Atlantic region. Alerts did not go out on time in both official languages. As the minister acknowledged, there may be a lot of forest fires again this year.

The RCMP is not currently prepared to meet all of its obligations under the act. Sometimes it's a matter of life and death. Why do you think this cultural problem persists? What should the RCMP do to fix it?

[Raymond Théberge]

A few years ago, we published a report on official languages in emergency situations. We found that, in all cases, preparation was inadequate. In other words, the necessary mechanisms, structures and processes had not been put in place to respond quickly in both official languages at the same time. As you said, if an organization sends a message to one segment of the population in one language, but waits 20 or 30 minutes to send it in the other language, it may be too late for that segment of the population.

Something that really stood out in our study was that, even though this has been going on for 10 or 20 years, organizations were still using the excuse that it was an emergency situation. Emergency preparedness is a reality, though. I just don't understand how, after 20 years, organizations still don't get that they need a mechanism to respond to emergency situations and immediately send a message in both official languages, thereby reaching 98% of Canadians.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Commissioner and Ms. Ashton.

Commissioner, as you know, the committee has invited you to appear as part of its study on language obligations related to the process of making appointments to key positions so that we can benefit from your knowledge. The committee has scheduled two meetings, and we would really appreciate it if you could send the clerk of the committee a list of witnesses the committee should invite. We usually have two one-hour blocks per meeting, and we invite two witnesses. It's not a rule, but it's the ideal. That means we would have a total of four blocks over two meetings. We'd appreciate if you could do that as soon as possible.

That concludes the public portion of our meeting. I would ask committee members to stay in the room and be patient, because we're going to go in camera for five minutes. That will save us from having to meet in camera during the parliamentary recess.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

The meeting is suspended.

[Proceedings continue in camera]