Official Languages Committee on March 18th, 2024

[Jennifer Carr]

It's very clear that we have to go back to a centralized system to ensure the policy on language, as well as training, comes to fruition. We cannot have silos. We cannot have inequity happening among the departments—whether or not they have money to spend on training for certain employees versus others.

I think it's very clearly about centralization.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Carr.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Ms. Carr and Ms. Bullion-Winters.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin.

Mr. Drouin, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses who are before us today.

Ms. Carr, I think I've already had a chance to meet you before you became president of the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada. You were then the person responsible for the National Capital Region, as I recall. It's been a long time since I've seen you. Welcome to the committee.

In principle, we're doing this study because the Commissioner of Official Languages has asked us to assess the effects of the adoption of Bill C‑13, particularly on senior public servants.

My first question is for Ms. Bullion-Winters.

You said that the Canada School of Public Service provides training for senior public servants to maintain their language skills and level in line with the requirements of their position within the public service. Is that right?

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

Yes, that's right.

Since a decision to that effect was made in 2006, the Canada School of Public Service no longer has a mandate to offer language training for second-language acquisition. Instead, it offers learning products to maintain language levels already acquired and to help public servants prepare for the language assessments conducted by the Public Service Commission of Canada.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

Basically, senior public servants must pass a test to determine whether they meet employment conditions.

Ms. Carr, you mentioned the decentralization of language training within the various departments.

Ms. Bullion-Winters, if a prime candidate applying for a position of high responsibility does not have the language skills to access that position, it is now the department's responsibility to ensure that this person is able to meet the language requirements of the position.

Prior to 2006, such candidates were instead sent to the Canada School of Public Service. Currently, does the department have the option of sending someone to the Canada School of Public Service and paying for their training, or have you not offered this service at all since 2006?

[Wendy Bullion-Winters]

No, we no longer offer these services at all.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

People therefore must go to an educational institution, whether it's a college, university or other school, to learn a second language, to prepare for a job.

Ms. Carr, I know you don't necessarily represent senior executives. However, I know several of your members who live in my region, and language training is still important to them, since some of them will certainly want to move into an executive position one day.

You talked about general training within the public service and said there was not enough language training. Is there no training that your members can access right now?

[Jennifer Carr]

They can't access language training unless it's approved by the department. As a public servant, if I want to improve my language skills but I'm not in a bilingual position, I have to fight for the few resources that exist.

If possible, I do want to address the last question.

When the government decentralized and took the responsibility for language training away from the Canada School of Public Service, it created a whole area of contracted-out services. We spend a lot of money on services to receive language training, but we don't have control over the quality of that training. We don't have any metrics on that training and whether people are getting the language they need through that training.

We've lost all capacity to do matrices on efficiency and have lost the ability to know how the training is happening.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

So you would favour a model where the Canada School of Public Service would once again have this responsibility within the government.

Also, you mentioned Treasury Board, which now has, in principle, responsibility for implementing the policy, but is not necessarily responsible for day-to-day training. How do you see the role given to Treasury Board by Bill C‑13?

We are talking about senior executives, but training is also relevant for people who might move into these positions later.

So, how do you see the new legislative provisions that have come into force and the role granted to Treasury Board in this new legislative framework?

[Jennifer Carr]

Sometimes I feel like a broken record because policies don't mean that departments will comply. If there is no way for them to have mechanisms to ensure a department complies, the policy isn't worth what it's written on. They need to have centralized control. They need to have matrices that make the departments responsible for meeting targets and then need levers to hold them accountable.

[Francis Drouin, Liberal, Glengarry—Prescott—Russell, ON]

I know departments are a bit more scared of Treasury Board than they are of, for instance, Canadian Heritage, where they encourage people to speak the other official language.

Thanks for your recommendations. They're sincerely appreciated. I'm speaking in English in the spirit of both official languages.

[Jennifer Carr]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Drouin.

I now yield the floor for six minutes to Mr. Beaulieu, member of the Bloc Québécois and second vice-chair of this committee.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank our guests here.

You talked about when the Canada School of Public Service stopped being responsible for language training. It reminds me a little of the Translation Bureau: services were decentralized, contracts were given out and quality declined. Now it's the same thing with language training: we're seeing more and more complaints and things are not working well.

Doesn't this reveal a lack of political will? Have there been any discussions about returning to a centralized system?

[Jennifer Carr]

In my opinion, if we're serious about official languages, we should centralize responsibility at Treasury Board. However, there is also a lack of resources. Budgets are insufficient. We can already see that departments have less money, and the first expenses they're going to cut are those related to training and travel.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Carr. By the way, you speak excellent French.

The situation is a little discouraging. On the one hand, the government talks about strengthening the French language, introduces bills and has good intentions. In reality, however, it's still too expensive to translate documents into French and to provide effective French training. I think we really need to take action. We'll see what kind of report the committee produces, but I think we're going to have to shake the tree a bit.

Yvon Barrière, from the Public Service Alliance of Canada, actually said the same thing, that we need to stop outsourcing language training.

Also, as part of the study of Bill C‑13, the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada published a brief that made some pretty hard-hitting observations. For example, you were concerned that the federal government was failing to foster respect for language rights by not adequately funding resources.

Do you get the impression that there's a will to improve things since the adoption of Bill C‑13, or that nothing is happening?

[Jennifer Carr]

In my opinion, the situation isn't worse, but it hasn't improved either. We don't see things changing quickly. The act was intended to accelerate the achievement of objectives with regard to both official languages, but I don't see it working so far.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you for your observation.

In your brief, you also said that there was an inequality in the designation of language requirements for positions, and you talked about professional problems. I'm not sure I understand your sentence. I may have misinterpreted it.

What should be done about designating language requirements? We've seen a lot of problems in this regard. Sometimes, some positions don't even require bilingualism. So what should be done about it? My question can be for both witnesses.

As we can see, we accept people who don't speak French in bilingual positions, with the promise that French training will be taken. Sometimes the training doesn't produce very good results; sometimes it produces fairly good results, but, if the person doesn't practise speaking French, they revert to English.

[Jennifer Carr]

I'm going to answer in English just so it's clear.

When we changed the Public Service Employment Act and we made language a requirement, we did ourselves a disservice, which means that we didn't allow people the opportunity to get the training they needed to become bilingual.

One thing that I like to point out is that the position is bilingual, not the person. We have a lot of bilingual people who sit in unilingual positions. I think that is not a good way to know who can perform in what official language.

It's very clear to me that people who serve the public need to be able to speak in both official languages. It's not nice to have; it's a requirement.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In another meeting we had, a measure was discussed that should be advocated. When a bilingual position is to be filled, either training should be given to the successful candidate before they are given the job, or the person should be required to already have some knowledge of French. Clearly, some people find it very difficult to learn a new language. In other cases, people don't even have access to resources.

Would you agree with such a measure?

[Jennifer Carr]

That's how it used to be. You used to be able to hire somebody in a bilingual non-imperative role, which meant that it would give them time, a year or two years, to obtain their language certification. With the change of the act and making it mandatory, you had to have the certification on the day you were appointed. When I said that it's a disservice, it's because we're not offering the ability to have the language training so you can meet those requirements.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Carr.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have less than five seconds left.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In that case, I thank you very much.