Official Languages Committee on March 21st, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Quell.

Thank you, Mrs. Kusie.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the witnesses once again for being here to help us improve the situation.

First of all, given the comments we've received, I hope there will be better standardization in terms of training. From what we're hearing, training is the responsibility of each of the departments and it isn't working. I hope we can find a way to improve the situation.

Furthermore, my young colleague Mr. Drouin mentioned earlier that young people of his generation were waiting 10 months or more before being hired to fill vacant positions. That's unacceptable. There are young people who go elsewhere and find a job in the private sector fairly quickly. We lose a lot of young bilingual people who go elsewhere because the public service takes too long. I hope you'll improve that aspect.

I would like to come back to what Mrs. Kusie said earlier about section 34 of the Official Languages Act.

I'd also like to thank Mr. Quell and Mr. Adam for spending months and months with us as we study Bill C‑13. I know it was very enlightening for them. They've been a great source of inspiration for us.

For the benefit of Canadians who are listening to us now, I'd like you to give us some clarification. I want to go back to our study on senior officials and Governor in Council appointments.

Mr. Quell, you mentioned a statistic of 95%. I think you mentioned it as well, Mrs. Hamoui.

In addition to deputy ministers, there are assistant deputy ministers, associate deputy ministers, directors and managers. So there are four levels of positions.

Does Bill C‑13 apply to those four levels? What improvements could be made to those four groups of managers who provide immediate supervision of employees?

[Carsten Quell]

I'll start, and then I'll turn it over to my colleague.

I understand that it's complex, but I'll try to sort it all out.

When we talk about deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers, these are people who are appointed by the Governor in Council. They fall under Mrs. Hamoui's purview, so I won't go into that.

As for assistant deputy minister positions, they aren't Governor in Council appointments. These positions are governed by Treasury Board policies. Those are the positions I was referring to, for example, when I indicated that there was a rule that a higher language profile was required, and that it was imperative. In other words, this level must be attained at the time of appointment to these positions.

Then there are executive positions, that is, management positions, which are EX‑level positions.

Below that are managers.

However, for all these positions I just named, according to section 91 of the Official Languages Act, the requirements of the position must be objectively assessed to determine whether the position is designated bilingual and what the level of bilingualism should be. Once appointed, people must comply with the requirements of the position.

If you wish, I'll invite my colleague to answer the question about deputy minister positions.

[Rima Hamoui]

The system is different for deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers. The positions don't have a linguistic profile. They are Governor in Council appointees, and their condition of employment is to personally ensure the use of both official languages in their organization.

Now, under the changes made to the act, people who are appointed to these positions must take the necessary training so that they themselves are able to speak and understand both official languages. They can undergo training to achieve this.

I can say that the vast majority of deputy ministers are bilingual. I would say that 88% to 90% of them are. It's commensurate with the number of people promoted from within the public service. People who come from outside the public service also have an obligation to ensure that they use both official languages and take the necessary training.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you.

My colleague Mr. Samson absolutely wants to ask one last question.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

You have less than 30 seconds.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Mr. Adam, I don't want you to have come here without having had an opportunity to speak. I love your title: you're the director of oversight and compliance at the Official Languages Centre of Excellence.

Can you tell me in 10 or 15 seconds how your role will change, now that Bill C‑13 has been passed, compared to last year? You can give me the broad strokes.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That's an excellent question, Mr. Samson, but your time is up.

However, I will let you answer, Mr. Adam.

[Karim Adam]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll answer quickly.

This is a new role for Treasury Board. Its powers have been strengthened and expanded. It plays an enhanced oversight role for all 200 federal institutions. They've already started to take on that responsibility.

I'd also like to point out that, in addition to the new responsibilities I'm referring to, you'll see changes in oversight in the annual report that we will table in Parliament.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. That's a very good answer.

Is it possible to send the committee a report explaining that?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Yes, I'll take care of that, Mr. Samson. Your time is up. Thank you.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, we know that the entire official languages policy is based on the concept of institutional bilingualism, meaning the possibility for people to use the language of their choice.

What happens if there's a francophone worker and an anglophone worker, and one wants to work in English and the other in French?

[Carsten Quell]

The short answer is that managers have to be bilingual.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You're not answering my question.

What happens if a manager wants to work in French, and the employee wants to work in English?

[Carsten Quell]

This situation arises in communications between different regions. At some point, the bilingualism of the people in question must be called upon.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The Public Service Alliance of Canada tells us that there's systemic discrimination in the federal public service and that it's always assumed that everything happens in English, even in Quebec. I think the problem lies in the model that favours one language over another. For example, Hockey Canada prohibits players from speaking French because the organization believes that, in emergency situations, only one language should be used. It's the same at all levels. In fact, everything is done in English, unless there are places where French is really the language of use. So that model doesn't work.

[Carsten Quell]

I can provide information based on the policies that are in place.

For example, in federal institutions located in the province of Quebec, with the exception of designated bilingual regions, in other words, the Eastern Townships and Montreal, the language of work is French.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

How is it that officials are saying the opposite, that is, that federal institutions in Quebec function very much in English, for example at meetings?

There's something really wrong here. I think it's the very principle of the Official Languages Act that isn't working. We can see that French is in constant decline. That's what the study of language planning models tells us. When a model is based on institutional bilingualism, it's always the majority language that dominates and ends up assimilating the minority languages.

[Carsten Quell]

I could give you the results of the 2022 public service employee survey—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Mr. Quell, I'm going to have to interrupt you, since your time is up. I'll come back to that later, though.

I want to let you know that we have to leave the meeting room at 10:15 a.m. because another committee will be holding a meeting in here.

I'll give Ms. Ashton the opportunity to speak for two and a half minutes.

Go ahead, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for Mrs. Hamoui or Ms. Jones.

Section 34 of the new Official Languages Act states the following:

A person appointed by the Governor in Council to the position of deputy minister or associate deputy minister or a position of an equivalent rank in a department named in Schedule I…shall, on their appointment, take the language training that is necessary to be able to speak and understand clearly both official languages.

How do you plan to guarantee that this will happen?

How many deputy ministers in office today are bilingual?

[Rima Hamoui]

First, the Clerk of the Privy Council has instructed all current deputy ministers to comply with the changes to the act. If they don't fully understand both languages, they will be required to undergo training. He also asked them to report on it annually in their performance appraisal. This process will begin next year.

Deputy ministers can go to their department or their organization to get an assessment of whether they need training. If they do, they must take it and report on it annually.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

Can you tell me how many of the current deputy ministers are bilingual?

[Rima Hamoui]

Currently, 88% of deputy ministers identify as people who are at least functionally bilingual.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Is there a way for citizens to check whether deputy ministers speak French, or to verify other information about the rate of bilingualism?