Official Languages Committee on March 21st, 2024

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Tellier, I'm going to talk about the elephant in the room. Bilingualism is being discussed left and right. During our study of Bill C‑13, an act to amend the Official Languages Act, we discussed the two major language planning models.

The first model is based on collective and territorial rights, used by countries like Belgium and Switzerland. It is recognized around the world as the only model that protects minority languages.

In 1969, however, Mr. Trudeau chose the other model, institutional bilingualism. Since then, we have seen a decline in French across the board, and it seems to be accelerating. And yet no‑one wants to call into question this language planning model. If we tried to make French the common language within federal institutions in the main areas where there is still a critical mass of francophones, that would make it possible for people to really function in French. At the moment, however, we still find ourselves in situations where francophones are a very small minority and, in the end, English is the dominant language. What do you think?

[Geneviève Tellier]

Minority status is a fragile one. There is no way around it; we remain in the minority. So special accommodations must be made to protect that status.

We also have to ask ourselves how to define bilingualism. What do we mean by bilingualism? Does that mean that everyone must know both languages, or does it mean that everyone can work in their own language? Those are two very different things. If you say that every Canadian can work or live in French or English without having to know the other language, then you are in a bilingual country where both languages coexist and everyone can choose the language of their choice.

Now, at some point, it takes—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt. If you look at what's happening in the Flanders region of Belgium, Dutch is not threatened, even though it's a very minority language. The central government is bilingual.

Here, however, it's as if we wanted bilingualism to be everywhere, which doesn't work. What we're seeing is the assimilation of francophones outside Quebec, and even in Quebec now. Shouldn't the model be questioned? Even André Laurendeau called for a special status, which was based more on the territorial model. Should we not at least consider that approach?

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That is an excellent question, Mr. Beaulieu, but you will have to wait for the next round of questions to discuss it further, if there is another round.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

I have another question for the representatives of the Public Service Alliance of Canada.

We have heard rumours that the Canadian Coast Guard hires unilingual anglophones who are responsible for directing the work done in Quebec. What does this mean for Canadian Coast Guard workers in Quebec and the essential service they provide?

[Alexandre Silas]

Thank you for the question.

Indeed, our members who work for the Canadian Coast Guard in Quebec tell us that the people at the highest level of management are unilingual English speakers. Our workers in Quebec are sometimes unilingual francophones, or their mother tongue is French. Now they're going to have to force themselves to work in English as well, without having the opportunity, once again, to take training to increase their level of bilingualism at work. They therefore feel less and less comfortable working in the official language of their choice.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Okay. Thank you.

This is particularly concerning when we recognize that the Canadian Coast Guard does emergency-related work and that, of course, it is an essential service.

Recently, we have heard that there are problems at the Royal Canadian Mounted Police with translation and interpretation, as a result of which the information that must be provided in both official languages is not done so in a timely manner. Do you believe that this bilingualism gap, this lack of knowledge of French, particularly in Quebec and elsewhere where French is spoken, can hinder access to essential information that francophone Canadians need?

[Alexandre Silas]

Absolutely. We often hear our members say that there are two official languages in the federal public service: English and interpretation. However, particularly with regard to emergency services, information must be provided in both official languages as quickly as possible. Information should not be transmitted first in English and then, a few hours later, in French once it has been translated. We have heard examples of internal cases where important communications are sent first in English and then later in French. There are also external cases where important communications to the public are made in English first, with francophones having to wait longer for information in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Silas and Ms. Ashton.

Mr. Godin, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ms. Tellier, I'm going to go back to the question I asked earlier. We made an observation, which is being confirmed by our analysis of the situation. However, based on that, what should we do, as legislators, to reverse the trend and stop the decline of French? The problem is not bilingualism, but rather French. English may be in decline compared to other languages in the world, but our country is a bilingual one with French and English, and the only language in danger in Canada is French. You've already talked about timeliness. Do you have any other important suggestions for us?

[Geneviève Tellier]

That's a very good question.

The challenge is that you are legislators. You are not the ones shaping public policy and managing programs. Your role is one of accountability. So accountability is what you can work on, by asking the government and the public service to provide status reports for a certain program, for example.

Legislators can make requests, such as status reports. You can be proactive in this regard and force the government to explain its approach. You can't do the government's work, but you can certainly ask questions. That is why your committee is ideally suited to work on the issue of appointments, because it is not something we deal with every day. I also believe that you heard what the Commissioner of Official Languages, another one of your witnesses, had to say. So your role is to ask the government questions that can be uncomfortable, and to do so repeatedly if need be, and to conduct regular and relevant follow-ups with on the progress of the issues you are interested in.

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

So it's a question of demanding accountability.

You spoke earlier of statistics and data. During our study of Bill C‑13, we proposed an amendment to incorporate in the Official Languages Act the mandatory enumeration of rights holders as of the next census. The Liberals rejected that amendment, even though we fought in 2021 to have such an enumeration conducted as part of the census.

So that's a problem. We don't have the data, but we know that the calculations are based on the number of rights holders, which has financial repercussions in our official language minority communities. That is an observation. I would like to hear your comments on that.

[Geneviève Tellier]

I'm going to talk to you about the public service, since I have a few more ideas on that subject. You'd have to document what's going on in the public service. The commissioner said that there was a lack of data. It's not just a matter of enumerating in the usual manner. You really have to get to a granular level on the ground. As the union mentioned earlier, we have to ask people whether they can work in French, store that information and look at trends over time. So it's that kind of data, collected within the public service, that you should have.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Tellier.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for three minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for their suggestions to the committee.

I want to remind everyone that this study, which was recommended by the Commissioner of Official Languages, concerns the appointment of senior public servants. The witnesses have made a number of good suggestions.

Ms. Tellier, you also talked about how we define terms such as bilingualism. We know that the University of Ottawa and Laurentian University call themselves bilingual, but truth be told, these are not really bilingual institutions. They offer certain courses in French.

You drew a parallel between institutions such as the University of Ottawa and the senior ranks of the public service. What are your recommendations? I already mentioned the hiring issue. Last Monday, we heard the Professional Institute of the Public Service of Canada say that it was not important to hire candidates who speak French, since they could be trained later. I completely disagree, and I would like to hear your recommendations on this.

[Geneviève Tellier]

I think I said it earlier, but I will say it again. French is an essential skill, not an asset. So it should not be at the bottom of the list, as we see all too often.

I'm going to draw a parallel with the University of Ottawa: between two otherwise equal candidates, the university will choose a unilingual anglophone professor rather than a bilingual professor. We see this frequently in the academic world.

Again, it takes strong leadership. People should know that, if they want positions that interest them, they have to know both languages. We're talking about appointments at senior levels. This is something that you prepare for in life, not something that happens as soon as you enter the public service. So, if a person intends to someday become a director general or assistant deputy minister, and knows that he or she must know French at the time of his or her appointment, he or she will learn French. The message has to be clear.

We haven't talked about it yet, but there also has to be a clear policy on how official languages provisions are applied. This policy will have to be centralized at the Treasury Board Secretariat, most certainly, with general parameters that can then be put in place by each federal institution.

[Alexandre Silas]

If I may clarify, our position at the Public Service Alliance of Canada is that hiring francophones is important.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Are you talking about the senior ranks of the public service?

[Alexandre Silas]

Yes, absolutely.

One of our requests is that there be more opportunities for advancement for unilingual francophones or for those whose mother tongue is French. In senior management, it is okay to be a unilingual anglophone or bilingual. However, a unilingual francophone has fewer options.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you for everything.

That was an excellent second round.

I would like to thank the witnesses for taking part in this exercise this morning. I know I have been a strict timekeeper, but this has allowed us to complete two full rounds of questions in one hour, which is quite rare. I know I have cut you off a couple of times, so if you want to add any information that you were unable to share with us today, please send it in writing to the clerk of the committee and it will be distributed to all members. When we prepare to write our report, written submissions are just as important as what was said at the meeting.

Thank you so much. What a fantastic morning.

I will suspend the meeting for a few moments so that we can welcome our witnesses for the second hour.

Thanks again.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting back to order.

Welcome to the new panel.

From the Privy Council Office, we have Marcia Jones, director general, strategies and planning, and Rima Hamoui, assistant secretary to the cabinet, senior personnel. From the Treasury Board Secretariat, we have someone we have already seen here, Carsten Quell, executive director, and Karim Adam, director, oversight and compliance, both from the official languages centre of excellence in the office of the chief human resources officer. From the Canada Border Services Agency, we have Holly Flowers Code, vice-president, human resources.

I will give each of the witnesses up to five minutes for their presentations. After that, there will be a question and answer period.

We'll start with Mrs. Hamoui.

[Rima Hamoui, Assistant Secretary to the Cabinet, Senior Personnel, Privy Council Office]

Thank you. Mr. Chair.

Honourable members of the committee, good afternoon.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that the lands on which we are gathered are part of the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinaabe people.

My colleague and I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss official language obligations related to Governor in Council appointments. I will provide you with a brief overview of the role of the management priorities and senior personnel secretariat within the Privy Council Office in managing and coordinating the process for Governor in Council appointments.

Governor in Council appointees include heads and members of commissions, boards, agencies, administrative tribunals and Crown corporations, as well as deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers leading federal public service departments.

Bilingualism is a fundamental responsibility of federal institutions, and Governor in Council appointees play important roles in carrying out the mandates of these organizations.

Governor in Council appointments are made by the Governor General on the advice of cabinet and on the recommendation of the responsible minister.

Since 2016, the government has used open, transparent, and merit-based selection processes to support ministers in making recommendations for these appointments. This approach is intended to support the identification of highly qualified candidates who meet the skill, knowledge and experience criteria of a position, and who reflect Canada’s diversity in terms of linguistic, regional and employment equity groups.

These selection processes are application-based. Positions are advertised through notices of opportunity on the Privy Council Office website. Federal departments conduct outreach to attract qualified candidates. Applications are assessed against advertised criteria for the positions. Following interviews, a list of qualified candidates is provided to the responsible minister, who recommends a candidate to cabinet. The Privy Council Office provides the necessary support for this process.

Under the Language Skills Act, agents and officers of Parliament who are appointed by the Governor in Council are required to be bilingual prior to their appointment. The language proficiency of candidates for those positions is assessed during the interview stage of a selection process and, if necessary, can also be assessed through language testing provided by the House of Commons.

For the remainder of Governor in Council appointees who are not subject to the Language Skills Act, the notices of opportunity posted for those positions note the preference for bilingual proficiency, and individuals are asked to include in their applications their ability to speak and to understand their second official language. Applicants are interviewed in the official language of their choice and may be asked to answer one or more questions in their second official language to assess their bilingual proficiency.

The Privy Council Office tracks bilingual proficiency in the Governor in Council community and monitors trends to help support decision-makers.

The committee will be aware of the recent amendment to the Official Languages Act, which impacts deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers. Deputy ministers are appointed on the recommendation of the Prime Minister based on advice from the Clerk of the Privy Council. Subsection 34(2), part V of the act requires that individuals appointed to the position of deputy minister named in schedule I of the Financial Administration Act take the language training that is necessary to be able to speak and understand both official languages. This legislative provision reinforces the terms and conditions of appointment for deputy ministers, i.e., that they personally promote the use of both official languages in their institutions.

The senior personnel secretariat supports the Clerk of the Privy Council in overseeing the deputy minister community, including ensuring that they are aware of their individual responsibilities under the Official Languages Act. Deputy ministers are often promoted from the assistant deputy minister level within the federal public service and would be subject to valid proficiency levels in their second official language.

Individuals who are recruited from outside the federal public service are made aware of their legislative responsibilities, including those respecting official languages, as part of their terms and conditions of employment.

In closing, I would like to emphasize that the Privy Council Office is committed to supporting the Governor in Council as it strives to create a community of leaders reflective of today’s Canada.

Thank you for your attention. We would be pleased to take your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mrs. Hamoui.

We'll now go to the Treasury Board Secretariat.

Mr. Quell, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Carsten Quell, Executive Director, Official Languages Centre of Excellence, Office of the Chief Human Resources Officer, Treasury Board Secretariat]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity to appear before the committee here today.

As you already know, with me today is Karim Adam, and he is director of oversight and compliance at the Official Languages Centre of Excellence.

Today, in my brief remarks, I would like to provide some key information on the bilingualism of federal government executives.

Our two official languages are at the heart of the Canadian identity; they contribute to the values of diversity and inclusion. Bilingualism is a priority for the Government of Canada, and one of the reasons this is a priority is the right of Canadians to receive services from their government in either official language. This is a fundamental right, and our department is committed to ensuring that it is respected. A public service and institutional leadership committed to bilingualism can best meet the needs of Canadians to receive services in both languages.

In addition, federal public servants in bilingual regions for language-of-work purposes have the right to work in the language of their choice.

We are committed to fostering a workplace that is conducive to the use of both English and French.

Moreover, the modernized act strengthens and broadens the Treasury Board Secretariat's monitoring responsibilities in order to improve and maintain federal institutions' compliance with their official languages obligations, including obligations relating to service delivery and communications with the public and those relating to respect for employees' language of work rights.

As leaders, executives play a key role in setting the tone for the regular use of both official languages in the workplace.

Also, as you know, amendments to part V of the Official Languages Act address the bilingual capacity—as we just heard—of deputy ministers and associate deputy ministers, as well as the language-of-work rights of employees in bilingual regions. My colleague from the Privy Council Office has just spoken to that.

The Treasury Board Secretariat's responsibility extends up to the assistant deputy minister level, meaning the level below deputy ministers. Most appointments to deputy minister positions are made from within the public service, in particular by candidates from the pool of assistant deputy ministers.

The Directive on Official Languages for People Management requires that the assistant deputy minister positions be designated with a language profile of superior proficiency and that the incumbents of these positions be bilingual at the time of their appointment.

Of the approximately 6,000 public service executives, including assistant deputy ministers, 95% met the language requirements of their position as of March 31, 2023.

When we look at the situation from the employees' point of view, in the 2022 Public Service Employee Survey, three-quarters indicated that senior managers in their department use both official languages in their interactions with employees. Perceptions are similar between francophones, at 75%, and anglophones, at 76%.

That's a quick snapshot of the current situation.

However, despite this solid foundation for bilingualism, I would like to stress that official languages do need ongoing support and that we must be constantly vigilant so that the rights of Canadians and of public servants are respected.

I'll stop there and turn it over to my colleague from the Canada Border Services Agency.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you very much, Mr. Quell.

Ms. Flowers Code, from the Canada Border Services Agency, you have the floor for five minutes.