Official Languages Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank the witnesses.

First, we observe one thing from the various research studies: Minority French-language postsecondary institutions have for many years, and probably forever, suffered chronic underfunding. Do you agree?

Essentially, from what I understand, the provincial governments other than Quebec underfund francophone universities, to put it politely, and the federal government compensates for this with official languages support programs, ordinarily. Do you agree that there is chronic underfunding? What effects does that have today? Does the federal compensation make up for the loss?

[Martin Normand]

In fact, the share of university and college budgets made up of public funding has been gradually declining for a least 15 or 20 years, so there has been a reduction in public funding generally. That is what explains why our institutions are looking for new funding sources that would enable them to maintain their level of service. With public funding of universities continuing to shrink, ways have to be found to enable francophone institutions to offer services comparable to their anglophone counterparts.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You are avoiding my question a bit. You say there is less public funding everywhere, so you are excusing provincial governments for underfunding francophone universities.

[Martin Normand]

No, I was getting there.

Unlike their anglophone counterparts, francophone institutions have additional missions that are not always recognized in provincial governments' funding formulas. As a result, our members are in discussions with their provincial governments about ways of recognizing that additional work. I am sure my colleague from the Université de Moncton sees this every day, and could tell you about it better than I can. There are definitely extra functions that have to be recognized in the funding formulas.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Right.

In one of the recommendations made by the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, I saw that they criticized the requirement for a provincial contribution as a universal and necessary prerequisite for the federal contribution.

Are there provincial governments that refuse to make that contribution, and are therefore refusing the federal contribution?

[Martin Normand]

It is a little more complicated than that. For our institutions to have access to federal funding, sometimes the provincial governments ask them to draw on the resources they already have, and then calculate the provincial contribution. That mechanism therefore does not always have a lever effect, where the additional money from the province is on top of what the federal government is proposing.

What we have to understand, and this is where the intergovernmental coordination structure is important, is that the envelopes announced by the federal government do not always match a province's budget cycle. It is therefore difficult to imagine how a province could predict the amount of additional contributions for postsecondary education, outside the cycle, and match them as they are supposed to do.

That is why coordination is an important mechanism.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

In Quebec, for example, we see that the Quebec government overfunds anglophone universities as compared to their demographic weight, while outside Quebec the opposite is true.

Do you not think it is a bit weird that in Quebec, the government supports anglophone universities almost exclusively, under the official languages support programs?

[Martin Normand]

I admit that I do not have the figures at hand regarding funding for anglophone universities in Quebec, so I cannot tell you what that funding looks like, but I will rely on your reading of the figures.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You mentioned that the funding structure in the federal research funds relates to anglophone universities. According to the most recent figures, 37% of federal research funds in Quebec went to those universities. It may be the same in New Brunswick. The disparity experienced by francophones outside Quebec might be explained by the fact that preference is given to the big universities.

How could that be changed, structurally, to allow for better funding of francophone universities outside Quebec and enable Quebec to allocate the funding more equitably? I am asking for your opinion about the part relating to outside Quebec, not the part about Quebec.

[Gabriel Cormier]

In my opinion, we have to acknowledge that a small university does not necessarily have access to all funding sources and major research laboratories.

As my colleague said, research is mainly done in English, and it is very difficult for us to do our research in French. There are real disadvantages. If you publish an article in French, the impact, or reach, of the research is not the same. English is increasingly winning out in terms of—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier. I am sorry to interrupt you, but speaking time is already up. You will have an opportunity to tell us more when you answer other questions.

The last questions in this round will be from the New Democrat member.

Ms. Ashton, the floor is yours for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to welcome the witnesses.

The goal of our report is to make recommendations to the federal government.

Mr. Normand and Mr. Cormier, you have been clear in stating that the government needed to honour its promise by granting stable base funding of $80 million per year.

Mr. Normand, why is the $80 million per year important? Why is it important to have stable base funding?

[Martin Normand]

Thank you for those questions.

I am going to speak on behalf of the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne and my colleague Mr. Cormier will be able to talk more specifically about the situation in Moncton.

The report of the national dialogue published by the Association a year and a half ago included more than 30 recommendations. There are structural problems in the postsecondary sector in Canada and they have to be overcome, including through interinstitution collaboration. For that to happen, funding sources have to be found to support and sustain collaboration initiatives and address certain challenges. There are also structural problems relating to the fact that our institutions are smaller and are not able to achieve the same economies of scale as the large institutions. We want to make the institutions more attractive, but we also see that our student clientele's needs and expectations are changing. They want new programs and new types of services, and that is how our institutions can become more attractive. We must therefore find a way of meeting the needs of the Canadian clientele so they will choose to study in our institutions.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Mr. Normand, what do the members of the Association think about the fact that the promise to grant $80 million in funding per year has not been honoured in 2024? There is an action plan and we know what needs to be done.

[Martin Normand]

I will not deny that there has been some disappointment at seeing that the promise has not been fulfilled. In the national dialogue that was held, we made our needs and expectations clear. We pinned a lot of hope on the federal government's new obligations regarding postsecondary education as set out in the Official Languages Act.

We hope that the actions taken are going to make it possible to fulfill the ambitions of the communities and institutions, but also of legislators.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Cormier, why is stable base funding important for your university?

[Gabriel Cormier]

This type of funding certainly allows for better financial planning. Ordinarily this takes place in five-year cycles. In the immediate future, we are in a position of uncertainty and we are wondering what funding there will be next year. As I said earlier, $4.9 million was fine in 2002, but in 2024 the same amount means that we will hire fewer instructors to teach French courses. A $1,000 scholarship offered to a student in 2002 was more attractive than a scholarship of the same value in 2024.

We have to make cuts and make tough choices for our institution. We need to have stable funding, but it also has to be indexed to the cost of living. Costs and wages are rising. In New Brunswick, our electricity bill rose by 10% recently. This $80 million in funding would be extremely important, in that it would enable us to build up the base, plan our long-term needs, and invest properly in training.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Normand, you talked about supporting programs that are in high demand and meet an important need. We have heard about the labour shortage several times at this committee, particularly when it comes to instruction in French and to French immersion.

Should supporting institutions that offer instruction in French in order to train more teachers be a priority for the federal government? We are going to need them.

[Martin Normand]

That is an interesting question that is somewhat like the one that the member before you raised about the continuum.

Postsecondary education is at the top of the continuum, but it trains the people who are needed to fill all the other parts. You mention professors, but we also have to think about teachers' aides and all the other occupations that a school may have. We also have to think about early childhood educators if we are going to be able to offer parents that kind of choice.

Our postsecondary sector has to become sufficiently agile and attractive that we can bring in students who will fill positions all along this education continuum.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Mr. Cormier, do you have something to add?

[Gabriel Cormier]

I agree that this is extremely important in the field of education.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

We are going to start our second round of questions with Mr. Généreux, for the Conservatives.

The floor is yours for five minutes, Mr. Généreux.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank the witnesses.

Mr. Normand, you talked about structural challenges that were no longer working today. What are they, exactly? How did we get into this kind of mess when it comes to structure?

[Martin Normand]

In some areas of the postsecondary sector, and whether for financial, administrative or political reasons, institutions indeed do not always have the resources that would enable them to respond promptly to program requests coming from the community.

A gap may develop between the community's expectations and what the postsecondary institutions are offering, and that may encourage some young people who are looking for very specific programs to simply continue their education in English. If we are unable to make the institutions more attractive and enable them to adapt the programs they offer to the needs, it is difficult for them to respond properly to the attrition we are seeing throughout the education continuum.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Is this just a question of money?