Official Languages Committee on April 11th, 2024

[Martin Normand]

No, that is not it.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

What are the other factors involved, the ones not related to money?

I am going to come back to the question Mr. Godin asked you, about the possibility of a new committee, or a new structure, to be set up by the federal government to force the provinces to talk to you in order to make sure there is a complete continuum. If we leave the question of money aside, what are the other factors you, and possibly we, would have some control over?

To be clear: You know what the future holds for us when it comes to Canada's finances. There are factors that have to be taken into account. For the last eight years, we have been told that all the problems had been solved, everything was doing fine, everybody had been given money and everybody was happy. To all appearances, however, that is not the case. Everybody is not happy. The structural problems you allude to have been dismissed. They have not been taken into account. Money was simply given out in the hope that everything would right itself, but everything has not righted itself.

[Martin Normand]

Precisely, if we want to be more effective in the postsecondary sector, there has to be better intergovernmental coordination and better coordination with the actors on the ground to make sure that what each of them is doing is as effective as possible.

I will give you an example. Everyone is calling for greater collaboration among our institutions in order to offer a broader range of programs, in the most locations possible, everywhere in Canada. In order to do that, provincial governments have to talk to one another to promote collaboration among the institutions in the various provinces.

The federal government can play a leadership role in order to make sure the spaces exist, so the discussions take place among the provincial governments. The initiative and knowledge the federal government has, with what our institutions know, would make what each of them does as effective as possible in the context.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Mr. Normand, I have been here for several years, and for all that time we have been told that the federal government gives the provinces money, but there is no accountability. I am talking about the money paid to the provinces for education, of whatever kind. There is no accountability. In fact, we are not able to find out whether the provinces have actually spent that money on education.

I agree entirely about coordination, but will that really solve all the problems? Personally, I doubt it. However, I would be prepared to put this in place to see whether it is possible. Again, the provinces have to be genuinely persuaded that it can work. Again, I am sure that it is not just a question of money. I think we have the evidence of this.

There has to be a will on the part of all of the actors, and unfortunately I am not sure that all of the provinces have the same potential will as the federal government might have.

In any event, that is my view.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you for your comments, Mr. Généreux.

Thank you, Mr. Normand.

Mr. Samson, the floor is yours for five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would ask all members of the committee to give their unanimous consent to allow me the right to use all the rest of the time, because I have a lot of questions to ask. I would very much like their support.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you for being with us today, Mr. Cormier.

The information that Mr. Normand and you have provided causes me considerable concern. There are good things and there are more complex things. I am going to try to raise all the points quickly and I will ask for more information, if necessary.

Before entering this room, the first thing I asked myself was: What are the provinces doing when it comes to francophone education, what is the relationship between the postsecondary institutions and the provinces in this regard? The word "equitable" does not mean "equal". Listening to people here, it seems obvious to me that the provinces do not understand that.

I was the executive director of the Conseil scolaire acadien provincial de la Nouvelle-Écosse and I probably said the same thing 50,000 times to get people to understand that the word "equitable" does not mean "equal". That really has to change.

Mr. Normand raised a point in connection with my question regarding the provincial and federal governments. What are the provinces doing and what is their contribution to francophone education? We know that the provinces also do it in every other field. They are given money and then they take that money and invest it elsewhere, wherever they want. As my colleague said, accountability is an important issue.

I like the idea of creating a structure, a consortium. There already is one, the Table nationale sur l'éducation, which serves as a connecting thread. I have participated in that table, which works extremely well. However, there needs to be the same kind of consortium for the postsecondary sector also. That consortium gives people of goodwill who want to see progress on this issue a chance to discuss it.

Mr. Cormier, do you think that creating a structure, a consortium, is a good idea? Even though Mr. Normand said it, that does not mean it is a good idea.

Personally, I think it is, but I want to hear your opinion about it.

[Gabriel Cormier]

I think it is a good idea to have a round table so that we can discuss certain subjects with one another and move forward on implementing the new act.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you. You gave a very good answer.

My second point is this.

I heard that since 2002, the funding received from the Department of Canadian Heritage has stayed at $4.9 million. I am amazed. I think that is unacceptable. What efforts are being made by postsecondary institutions across Canada for francophones? Is there a strong voice speaking for them? That is what is needed. From 2002 to today, all governments have had responsibility for this funding. It is unacceptable on the part of any government.

You agree that it is unacceptable, of course.

I heard some things that were said and they have left my ears ringing. In the past, a person who did research might have done it in English because there was a wider audience. Now, you are telling me that if I do research in English, I will get more funding. Surely you jest! Explain that to me, please. Did I understand correctly?

[Gabriel Cormier]

I can't point to a specific research program, but there is more chance of getting funding because research in English has greater reach.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you.

As you know, I am an alumnus and proud student of the Université de Moncton. I am amazed to see that foreign students represent only 35% of your students, that being the Canadian average. Well done for that!

The funding is needed because there is no commitment from the province to provide it. That is obvious. I believe a consortium might do a lot to help us.

Do the foreign students who study at your institution then stay in New Brunswick? Do they stay in the Atlantic region? Do they contribute to the economy? Are they needed?

[Gabriel Cormier]

We have the highest retention rate. Of all the universities in New Brunswick, it is our francophones who stay in our communities. Certainly there are fewer of them than Canadians, but it is still a high rate. They stay, they make their contribution, they work in our businesses and they make up for the lack of growth in the labour force.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

What do you think is the effect of this funding shortfall on the postsecondary programs available in French in Canada?

[Gabriel Cormier]

We have to make choices. We cannot necessarily offer every program. They have to be limited in some cases. The number of scholarships has to be reduced and some people have to be offered less. So there are choices to be made in this regard.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

It is exactly like in the public schools. That is why additional funding is needed. The people on the ground in the provinces also have to understand that equity is not equality.

Thank you, Mr. Cormier.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Samson.

Mr. Beaulieu, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Normand, you talked about a coordination structure. We know that at the moment, funding is provided through federal-provincial agreements.

Is the way that the federal-provincial agreements are negotiated at present good enough? How would a coordination structure improve things?

[Martin Normand]

For example, the official languages in education program—the OLEP has changed its name, but it is still called that—is negotiated with the Council of Ministers of Education, Canada, the CMEC. The people at that table are the ministers of education, not the ministers of postsecondary education. Often, our members are worried that the voice of the postsecondary sector is not being heard around the table when negotiations take place.

In some provinces, it may be the same minister, but in several provinces there are ministers who have these different portfolios. That is why we think a separate table bringing together the ministers of postsecondary education would mean the right actors were around the table to negotiate the parts of the agreements that relate to postsecondary education.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Much is said about a fund for French-language postsecondary education. It would be a permanent, rather than project-by-project, support program.

Can you tell us more about that? Do you think that project-by-project funding would be more effective for research funds than a possible fund for French-language postsecondary education?

[Gabriel Cormier]

We need long-term, stable base funding. That is what is important. Of course the additional projects help us a lot, but what we need is to bump up our base funding so we can improve our planning and make choices about our programs. That takes time. Increasing the stable base funding would let us make better choices in future.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

Ms. Ashton, the floor is yours for two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Mr. Normand, the last time you testified before the committee, you explained how the new Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, rules in force since January concerning international students might hurt francophone universities and francophone communities. You also recommended that francophones wanting to study outside Quebec be considered by IRCC to be a priority cohort, as is the case for students in master's or doctorate programs.

Do you have any new information to give us on that subject? Do you have other recommendations to make to us?

[Martin Normand]

By March 31, 2024, all the provinces had set up their systems for distributing provincial attestation letters and allocating funding to the post-secondary institutions. The fact is that most of our institutions are satisfied with their share. Most of the provinces' decisions set a priority on post-secondary institutions, but it's unusual to have to rely on trust and chance to ensure that post-secondary institutions have access to enough attestation letters.

All this uncertainty has led many institutions to believe that this year, the number of applications for admission will not be as high as in previous years. There was a three-month period during which applications for permits were not processed by IRCC. This three-month period gave students enough time to consider studying elsewhere, including in Quebec. That meant that when the ceiling was announced, Quebec was ready to welcome foreign students almost immediately because it already had a system in place. That was all to the good for Quebec, but that province does compete with our institutions. For example, students who may have been considering both the Université de Moncton and the Université de Montréal may, owing to the uncertainty, have opted for the latter.

The concern is that all these changes might affect the number of applications for September 2024.