Official Languages Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Taylor Good]

When it comes to investments, I think the student body would agree with that statement. However, I would also like to point out that, during that period, especially before the pandemic, this was a provincial-level situation. At that time, Campus Saint-Jean depended on federal funding to make ends meet. At the time, the measures in question prevented all institutions from using federal funding to get through the pandemic.

I would also add that, during this time, provincial and federal investments were not exactly at their peak. That's not quite the right word, but let's just say they weren't at the level we wanted. In my view, it's only now that we're receiving this federal investment, which enables us in some ways to dig ourselves out of the situation we faced then.

Now, the challenge is to ensure that this funding is provided on an ongoing basis by the federal government, as a pillar and key partner.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. LeBlanc, you said that, in British Columbia, the institutional network of minority francophone associations was unable to meet the demand for post‑secondary programs in French. What's the current situation? Has it improved or not?

[Gino LeBlanc]

Obviously, if I could offer more programs, I could attract more people. There are limits, unfortunately.

I'd like to offer a criminology program in French. I can't. I'd like to offer science programs in French. I can't. I can't afford it. However, as I told you earlier, we do what we can in education and the social sciences.

The fact that post‑secondary education is a provincial jurisdiction is a key factor, but we gain absolutely nothing. In fact, I would say that what makes this file thorny is that we are dependent on tensions and arguments over the issue of federal or provincial responsibility. It's the responsibility of one or the other. That in itself is a tricky problem.

What we think is important is working together. Under the act, the federal government has a mandate, a responsibility, to ensure the development and vitality of official language minorities and to work towards that. We want to work with the federal government. We want to work with the Province of British Columbia. Right now, it's not perfect. We have a good relationship with the Ministry of Education. We want to move forward and increase our program offering.

Basically, we're fighting against the English language, against assimilation. We're one of the tools for providing the continuum of education in French, and we're part of that effort.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

You said earlier that most of your funding comes from the OLEP. Is that correct?

[Gino LeBlanc]

Precisely. It's a federal-provincial agreement. Since 2004, most of our funding has come from the official languages in education program.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.

The last questions in this round will come from the western gateway, with the NDP representative.

Ms. Ashton, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Welcome to the witnesses.

As you know, the purpose of this study is not only to learn about the situation of post‑secondary education in French, but also to make recommendations to the federal government on how to improve it.

Last week, the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, or ACUFC, made a presentation to the committee. Its request was clear, namely the creation of an additional $80 million fund for stable core funding. Do you agree with that request?

I'll ask Mr. LeBlanc first and then Mr. Good.

[Gino LeBlanc]

Yes, I think that's one of the tools.

As I said, it's not just a question of money, but money is also the sinews of war. The current government promised us that it would double that amount; unfortunately, when the Department of Finance came and put a figure on the post‑secondary education envelope, we didn't get the amount announced. Across Canada, that works out to $30 million a year for all post‑secondary institutions from Acadia to British Columbia. It's not a lot of money, but we'll take it.

The action plan contains other elements, such as the teacher recruitment and retention fund. I haven't talked a lot about teacher training so far. This teacher recruitment and retention envelope will allow us to play an important role in teacher training, and that counts. That's a very positive thing.

Finally, yes, we fully support the ACUFC's recommendation. There was a promise to double that envelope, but it didn't happen. That would certainly be a game changer in terms of our ability to deliver a much broader range of programs.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.

Mr. Good, do you have anything to add?

[Taylor Good]

I would say pretty much the same thing.

It's one of the tools available to post‑secondary institutions in minority communities, but it's not the only one. That said, it would be beneficial to their development.

It's also essential to always listen to students and consult them. We have a lot of contact with the jurisdictions, and that's important, but it's critical to hear the student voice as well.

Investments in infrastructure must also be maintained. Last month, the federal government announced nearly $2 million for the campus and its buildings, and for the creation of a program for job seekers. It will be great and essential for Campus Saint‑Jean.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Okay.

Mr. LeBlanc, you talked about the education continuum. As part of this study, I think it's very important to discuss the labour shortage in education. I know the situation in British Columbia is dire. Waiting lists for French immersion are very long, and there's a shortage of teachers. This is a reality that we're also experiencing in Manitoba. According to the friends and families who live there, people want to have their children educated in French through immersion, but they can't do it.

Can you tell us how your programs address this labour shortage? What is the connection between what you do and the importance of adequate and stable funding for your institution?

[Gino LeBlanc]

Thank you. That's an excellent question.

I don't know if you've heard from other witnesses from British Columbia, but I would remind you that there are 55,000 French immersion students there. That's quite something. Almost 10% of students with English as their mother tongue are in French immersion. In addition, the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie‑Britannique, the CSF, has 5,500 students.

The school system needs more francophone teachers, teachers' assistants and staff in all specialties. Simon Fraser University, like all universities, gives us seats to train teachers. We train some 40 teachers in French for the French school system, meaning for immersion programs or for the Conseil scolaire francophone de la Colombie‑Britannique. However, we could do more. Our colleagues at the University of British Columbia are also doing some training, and our colleagues at the University of Victoria have just started a small program of six or seven graduates.

The key here is to retain those people in our system. We can train them, but we also have to retain them afterwards. For our part, federal and provincial funding allows us to provide initial training, that is to say training that makes it possible to become a tenured teacher, but we could do more.

We also do professional development. Once teachers have integrated into the system, we have to make sure they have the tools and teaching materials they need to work in French and adapt the British Columbia school program adequately in French. In addition, we must ensure that the priorities of the Ministry of Education can be achieved in French. So at Simon Fraser University, with the help of federal and provincial resources, we play a very important role in supporting the entire francophone school system.

Furthermore, we also go abroad. We have a program called dual training. We recruit people from Europe, hoping that they will immigrate to Canada and teach in French in British Columbia. Other institutions do this as well, particularly in Acadia; so does Campus Saint‑Jean.

We're trying all kinds of strategies. Ms. Ashton, the deputy minister of education in British Columbia told me a few years ago that he could hire 250 teachers overnight, but that everyone already had a job.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

Thank you, Ms. Ashton. There were only five seconds left.

We'll now begin another round of questions.

Mr. Dalton, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

I'd like to thank the witnesses, Mr. LeBlanc and Mr. Good.

You represent institutions that are very close to my heart. My father studied at Campus Saint‑Jean in the 1940s. I also have two sisters, a brother and nieces who took courses there. Several members of my family have gone there. As for me, I have two degrees from Simon Fraser University: a bachelor's degree in history and in French, as well as a master's degree. So it's very important to me. In addition, my daughter took the Office of Francophone and Francophile Affairs, or OFFA, program, which greatly impressed her. OFFA and Simon Fraser University are very important to our francophone community.

Mr. LeBlanc said there were 50,000 immersion students, if I'm not mistaken—

[Gino LeBlanc]

There are 55,000.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

Okay.

It's already increased by 5,000 people in a few minutes, by 10%. That's very impressive. It's essential that this progress continue and that it not end with immersion.

Mr. LeBlanc, you talked a little bit about government funding. You said that the agreements entered into under the official languages in education program, or OLEP, lasted only one or two years and that they should be longer.

Can you speak to the importance of having more stable funding?

[Gino LeBlanc]

Thank you for your question, Mr. Dalton.

Let's take a step back. We're taking part in a societal project that involves having a francophone society across Canada. We, the post‑secondary institutions, are part of the education continuum, so we have a role to play. Twenty years ago, we began funding institutions through the OLEP and action plans. Everyone here knows that it takes four or five years to obtain a bachelor's degree, two or three years to obtain a master's degree and three or four years to obtain a doctorate.

When you offer a program like the French cohort at Simon Fraser University, where your child studied, you have to hire associate professors, and those contracts are renewed. For there to be a student life, we want programming spread out over five or ten years. So we have to start thinking about post‑secondary education in French in a minority setting, just as we think about the school system, francophone school boards and kindergarten. This is a multi‑year deployment. We can't think that a bachelor's degree in French is a five‑year project and then simply evaluate it and close the project.

As I said earlier, we have to take a leap of faith or make some kind of commitment to SFU. In fact, very concretely, committee members, it's April 15 and I have no more money. We've exhausted the funds that were granted to us under the OLEP, because the transitional year ended on March 31. SFU is saying that it will receive funding retroactively.

That's just one example. I'm not complaining, but this creates instability that makes it extremely difficult to plan post‑secondary programming in French.

So let's be a little more serious. Let's try to put in place a national action plan for the entire education continuum. I think it will yield results.

[Marc Dalton, Conservative, Pitt Meadows—Maple Ridge, BC]

We've long had a shortage of teachers in French as a second language and French immersion programs. Are student numbers increasing? Do we have the capacity to train them? Is there not enough money?

What can you tell us about that? Also, what about the importance of international students in your programs?

[Gino LeBlanc]

I'll answer the question, and I'll let Mr. Good speak as well on behalf of the Faculté Saint‑Jean. Of course, the province gives us a certain number of spaces, so the number of students we can accept is limited. This year, the number is a little higher.

In concrete terms, because of the pandemic, the situation in the education sector has been difficult. I think the teaching profession needs to be bolstered. I've seen the figures for all post‑secondary institutions, and the challenges are the same, whether on the francophone or anglophone side. However, I think the sector is growing. Most importantly, we intervene once the teachers are in the system. We had a high attrition rate and lost a lot of French teachers in the English program. They didn't want to stay there because they felt isolated. We're trying to work with a 360‑degree or comprehensive approach to ensure that these people stay and develop the program in French.

Of course, we could do more if we had more resources. There's no doubt that there are gaps, a shortage and an insufficient capacity at the moment to train teachers at the post‑secondary level in French.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc and Mr. Dalton.

Mr. Serré, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'd also like to thank the two witnesses who are here today.

Mr. Good, you presented students from a perspective that is very helpful to us today.

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc, for the important work you're doing at Simon Fraser University in British Columbia, work that is extremely important for the francophone community across the country.

As you mentioned, $128 million was announced over four years, $32 million of which is for post‑secondary education. We know that's not enough. We also know that, in 2024-25, the first recommendation of all committee members will probably be to increase that amount to $80 million, which probably won't be enough either, but at least it will be a start.

Mr. LeBlanc, thank you for mentioning recruitment in the action plans totalling $4.1 billion over five years, which doubles the amount granted since 2015. I recently announced 40 student scholarships worth up to $30,000 each for public and Catholic school boards across Canada to encourage students to study in French.

Mr. LeBlanc, my first question is for you. You mentioned the $80 million, and on the second recommendation you suggested that you weren't at the table with the province and the federal government. You know that the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, or ACUFC, has indicated that it would set up a round table.

Can you contribute to the committee's thinking on the recommendations it should make to ensure that there is a good table focusing on post‑secondary education? It's really not simple. Section 23 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms deals with elementary and secondary education, not post‑secondary education. At the federal level, we included post‑secondary education in the act for the first time.

I'd like to hear what you have to say about the role that the provinces and educational institutions should play at the round table.

[Gino LeBlanc]

Thank you very much for your question.

Wasn't it also announced that funding would be doubled up north, in Sudbury? We were very pleased and remain optimistic. We hope that Treasury Board will review this funding.

I think Parliament should be given credit at this point, given that the modernization of the Official Languages Act includes post‑secondary education. We don't yet know what that will look like, as public policy hasn't changed and neither have the programs. I believe the regulations will be developed around Part VII of the act and the obligation of federal institutions.

Subsections 41(1), 41(3) and 41(6) specify that post‑secondary education is part of the continuum. I think this is a significant and very important step forward. Then, the action plan provides for money, new budget envelopes. That's also important.

In fact, where we are absent, and where it's a bit odd, is in the official languages in education program, the OLEP. Not only does the OLEP require a memorandum of understanding, but it must also be approved by ten provinces, three territories and the federal government. I'm not telling you anything new when I say this: Mr. Samson knows this by heart, you too, Mr. Serré, as does everyone around the table. As some provinces are less happy than others, things are slowing down, while other provinces would be ready to move forward. I think we have to review the way we want to structure this envelope. I'm not sure the MOU is a good tool. I think it's putting the brakes on. However, it certainly plays a role in regulating public policy.

Let's now talk about bilateral agreements. None of us, neither the Université de l'Ontario français, the Université de Moncton nor the Faculté Saint-Jean, are at the table. If we have a good relationship with our respective ministries of education, that's fine. That's the case in British Columbia. Otherwise, if things go wrong with a government that doesn't like francophones or is not open to the francophonie, it can be extremely complicated.

Mr. Good, perhaps you could comment on your absence from the provincial table.

[Marc Serré, Liberal, Nickel Belt, ON]

I only have about a minute left.

Mr. LeBlanc, could you submit specific recommendations for research and tell us what the federal government can do to encourage people at the doctoral and master's levels?

Mr. Good, thank you for sharing your point of view with us. According to what you told us, you had six bilingual programs and three in French, but the Alberta government made drastic cuts in 2020 by reducing the number of French‑language programs to just one. You mentioned a $13 million agreement involving the federal government, the province and the university.

Is the number of courses back to what it was in 2020, when you were a student?

[Taylor Good]

The number of courses hasn't returned to what it was in 2020, but new programs have been added, such as a master's degree in education sciences and a doctorate in transdisciplinary studies. The number of courses has still not returned to what it was in 2020.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Good and Mr. Serré.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.