Official Languages Committee on April 15th, 2024

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

That is not necessary, Ms. Roy. Thank you very much.

Mr. Surette, I would like to hear your opinion on this. I have more specific questions to ask you after that, if I have time.

What tangible tools have you been using daily since the legislation came into force a year ago?

[Allister Surette]

I am not sure that we have tangible tools, but the act does contain some tools that we can benefit from. We are certainly still waiting to see the regulations. When I was in government, it was always the details in the legislation that mattered. We are still waiting for those details.

The encouraging thing is that we have the means, the legislative tools that we should be able to use to advance our institutions. Post-secondary education has received funding through the official languages in education programs; that is new and it is very positive for our sector. Have we received enough? No, and we will always say that we have not received enough. The fact that we received this funding is very promising.

The other part in all that—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Quickly, Mr. Surette, because I have other questions for you that I want to squeeze in.

[Allister Surette]

Okay.

I wanted to say that the more the role of the province, the territory, the federal government is clarified—I think you already noted this—the better off we will be. It is so divided that it is hard for us, as a client, to navigate between the province and the federal level and its different departments. Collaboration could be a good tool—

[Joël Godin, Conservative, Portneuf—Jacques-Cartier, QC]

Mr. Surette, I would like you to make a comparison between 2010 and 2024.

Could you send us the following information: the number of francophone students in 2010 and in 2024; the number of fully francophone programs in 2010 and 2024; and the number of foreign francophone students in 2010 and in 2024? You can send that data to our clerk. That would be interesting to see and might indicate to us what areas we need to work on.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Godin and Mr. Surette.

The next questions will be asked by the shyest member of our committee.

Mr. Samson, you have the floor. You have five minutes.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I also want to thank my two colleagues for their presentation this afternoon.

As you know, it is extremely important work. I think this is the first time we are doing a study on post-secondary institutions in the context of official languages, namely French.

I will certainly commend my friend Mr. Beaulieu for his efforts, also knowing that it is important to address, now, school and pre-school, which, I hope, will be part of our analyses.

I would like to begin by noting that we have made a lot of progress with the fact that the act recognizes post-secondary education as well as pre-secondary education, even though it is not included in the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, as stipulated in article 23 at the time. Progress has been made.

One of my questions is on the reaction of the provinces. Do they agree with all this?

I will try to ask short questions.

Ms. Roy, I want to know more about your third recommendation, on the collaboration structure. Tell me briefly about this. Is it similar to the Table nationale en éducation that still exists today?

[Liane Roy]

It could be similar, but it is different. It would be very focused on the post-secondary sector and might truly influence what goes on there. Collaboration is important because it would truly help the different bodies become aware of the challenges at the post-secondary institutions.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

I agree with you. I know how effective the Table nationale en éducation has been and I see that it may be time to create a collaboration structure for funding post-secondary institutions.

I also want to thank you, as well as your federation and all the member organizations, for the work you have done for bills C‑31 and C‑35 because it also focuses on institutions responsible for early childhood education, which is very important.

Mr. Surette, it is always a pleasure to see you.

I would like to take this opportunity to thank you for your hard and extremely effective work in connection with Université Sainte‑Anne, as well as your contribution on the provincial, national and international levels for the establishment. You were a key player as director general of the Acadian provincial school board. I very much liked working with you and I thank you again.

That being said, I would like to address two topics: the ceiling on study permits and the official languages in education program.

Ever since the minister announced a strategy to control the number of foreign students he wants to welcome, I understand that the discussions in Nova Scotia seem to be advancing. I would like to know your opinion on the matter.

Has federal-provincial funding for post-secondary institutions increased since 2015? I would like to hear you say that is the case.

Are the criteria that francophone post-secondary institutions and universities need to meet different from those imposed on anglophone institutions?

For example, when I was working at the school board, I had different categories to rank, including cultural facilitators, investments in early childhood, recruitment, and so on. Do you think these categories exist?

[Allister Surette]

No, these categories do not exist. There is only basic funding.

We have an agreement with the province of Nova Scotia that allocates overall funding of $380 million. A formula is applied to divide this funding between 10 universities.

As I mentioned, we are the only one of these 10 universities that is francophone, and it is very small. The formula uses the same criteria for minority francophone institutions, rural institutions, and so forth. However, it is very limited.

The short answer is no. If we want francophone facilitators, then we need to include the cost in our budget.

[Darrell Samson, Liberal, Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, NS]

In my opinion, that is the main objective of a consultation structure. There are public schools in Nova Scotia and they were able to distinguish themselves. If the criteria for securing core funding were different, perhaps they could get more to meet their objectives, so I would also like to see that happen from that perspective.

I understand that about 30% of your students are international students. What impact do those students have on the vitality of communities in Nova Scotia and on your institution?

[Allister Surette]

They have a major impact on our institution because they represent 30% of our population.

As I mentioned, since we are a very small university, only a very limited number of students are accepted into our programs. Immersion students make up about 25% of our student body, and it is very important for our university to add these foreign students and immersion students to our Acadian and francophone population.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Surette.

I'm sorry to interrupt you, but we're out of time. You will have the chance to speak later when answering questions from other members.

Mr. Beaulieu, you have two and a half minutes.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Mr. Surette, your university also has a lot of immersion students.

What percentage of students are doing all of their studies in French and what percentage are taking the immersion program at Université Sainte-Anne?

[Allister Surette]

I'm not sure I understood your question correctly.

At Université Sainte-Anne, everything is done in French.

We are in the business of school management, as they refer to it in the public schools. All of our programs and courses are given in French.

When I talk about immersion students, I am talking about public school immersion students who are francophiles or francophones. They attend the same courses and programs as foreign students and our francophone and Acadian students.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Are the immersion students anglophones who want to learn French?

Who are the students who attend the immersion program at Université Sainte-Anne?

[Allister Surette]

That is what I'm trying to explain. We don't have an immersion program per se, other than the summer programs for anglophones who want to learn French. Those are courses that we offer during the summer for a period of five weeks.

During the normal school year, a student who wants to do a bachelor of education, for example, must have the necessary French skills to take the program at our university.

When I talk about immersion students, I am talking about students who have graduated from English public schools but who speak French really well and who take courses and programs at our university. There are two different things—

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

What is the approximate percentage of anglophone students who decide to study at your university?

[Allister Surette]

As I said, about 30% of our students are international students, mainly from African countries, and depending on the year, about 25% of our students are anglophones who speak French really well. The other students are Acadians or francophones, mainly from the Maritimes but also from elsewhere in Canada.

[Mario Beaulieu, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Okay. Thank you.

We talked a lot about creating a consultation structure.

Right now, there is the protocol for agreements for minority-language education and second-language instruction. Various structures already exist, but in your opinion, they don't work and they are not effective enough.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

That is an excellent question, Mr. Beaulieu, but the answer will have to wait.

The next speaker is Ms. Ashton.

You have two and a half minutes.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I wanted to talk more about the labour shortages in education.

You talked about that earlier, Mr. Surette. That is a reality that we are very familiar with in the French education system and the French immersion system here in Manitoba. Obviously, that is a challenge that is undermining our society's ability to educate the next generation.

I have spoken about my personal experience before. I am the result of a French immersion system here in Manitoba. My parents' generation fought hard for us to be able to get an education in French. Now, such opportunities exist in theory, but we do not have enough teachers for our children.

Could you tell me briefly about the reality in Nova Scotia in that regard? How bad is the labour shortage there? Why is stable core funding essential to support your education programs and produce new graduates who can teach our children?

[Allister Surette]

That's a good question.

The simple answer is that, like many provinces in Canada, Nova Scotia is facing a major labour shortage, particularly when it comes to French language teachers and French immersion teachers.

We are unable to recruit enough students to fill the number of spaces in the program for various reasons. I think that we need to hold a marketing campaign or a campaign to promote the profession to make the program more attractive. We also need to be creative when it comes to recruiting students.

Let me give a quick example.

One of the things that we are trying to do is to reach agreements with universities in France to recruit students who meet pretty much all of the criteria to get a bachelor of education. What we would do, here in Canada, is to help them complete their training in one year or less. Then, they could quickly enter the labour market.

We have to get really creative because, quite honestly, I don't think we have a large enough clientele here, particularly a francophone clientele, to address the shortage of teachers.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Surette.

Thank you, Ms. Ashton.

[Niki Ashton, NDP, Churchill—Keewatinook Aski, MB]

Thank you.