Official Languages Committee on April 15th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome everyone to meeting number 94 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Official Languages. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3) and the motion adopted by the committee on September 20, 2023, the committee is resuming its study on federal funding for minority-language post-secondary education.

I won't go into all of the usual detail about the Zoom app since we are all pretty used to it by now. Please wait for me to recognize you by name and activate your microphone before speaking. I'd like the committee to know that everyone participating virtually has already done a sound check and found everything to be in order.

In this first hour, I'd like to welcome some familiar faces. First, from the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, we have the organization's president, Liane Roy. This isn't her first time appearing before our committee.

Then, from the wonderful Université Sainte-Anne, in beautiful Nova Scotia, the cradle of Acadia, we have Allister Surette, president and vice-chancellor. We've seen him before, as well.

As you know, you'll have five minutes each to make your presentation. Then, we will move on to questions and answers for each political party. I'm strict about time, which can be a bit frustrating, but that's how we can get two rounds of questions.

I'll start with you, Ms. Roy. You have five minutes.

[Liane Roy, President, Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada]

Mr. Chair, committee members, good afternoon.

I'd like to thank you for inviting me today.

As you know, the Fédération des communautés francophones et acadienne du Canada, or FCFA, is the national voice of 2.8 million French-speaking Canadians living in minority communities across nine provinces and three territories.

In 2021, the FCFA became co-organizer of the États généraux sur le postsecondaire en contexte francophone minoritaire. This major national consultation exercise, which we conducted jointly with the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, or ACUFC, was necessary, given the precarious, even fragile, situation of our post-secondary institutions. It was important to find coherent, systemic and sustainable solutions to consolidate the post-secondary sector, which is extremely important for the Canadian francophonie. The FCFA became a co-organizer of this national dialogue because colleges and universities are much more than educational institutions. They are part of the francophone community, places where people can live in French, places where young people can learn about francophone leadership, and research hubs that benefit the francophone community. In short, when we consider support for post-secondary education in French, we must do so from a holistic perspective that takes into account all the contributions that colleges and universities make to the vitality of communities.

I could spend hours describing the wealth of testimony we gathered during the national dialogue. I'd like to talk to you about the interruption that too often occurs in the French-language education continuum between high school and post-secondary education. I will tell you about the advantages of small institutions such as the Université de l'Ontario français or the Université Sainte-Anne. I will tell you about the immense value that international students bring not only to their college or university but also to their host communities. Finally, I will talk about the importance that the FCFA places on the completeness of the provision of French-language post-secondary education, which would come from increased collaboration between institutions.

The sheer volume of information collected and the massive size of the final report we published with the ACUFC in the fall of 2022 attest to the importance that the francophonie places on post-secondary education in French and the many roles that colleges and universities play.

I imagine this won't come as a surprise, but funding is but one of the major factors in the survival of these post-secondary institutions. This issue was at the heart of the raison d'être of the national dialogue, which brought to light the fact that it generally costs more to provide post-secondary education in French, whether because of the size of the institutions, the age of the infrastructure, the relative scarcity of French-language educational resources or the difficulty in recruiting human resources. Achieving substantive equality of access to post-secondary education cannot be achieved without acknowledging this fundamental asymmetry. This type of asymmetry illustrates why it was important to state clearly, in the modernized Official Languages Act, the importance of taking into account the specific realities of French and English, and of taking measures to protect and promote French.

If we're to achieve this substantive equality between the two official languages, the government must take into account the realities of our communities and provide the necessary resources so that every francophone wishing to pursue his or her post-secondary education in French can do so without facing obstacles that a student in the majority would not have to overcome. That doesn't mean you have to have a francophone university or college in each community. We could, however, consider providing mobility grants for francophone students—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Please wrap up within 10 seconds, Ms. Roy.

[Liane Roy]

—who have to leave their community to study in French, or using levers for funding partnerships, for example.

That's why we've made three recommendations.

First, we recommend that the federal government introduce a tool to monitor all investments it makes in post-secondary education in francophone minority communities.

Second, we recommend that the federal government fund the establishment of a mechanism to measure progress towards substantive equality.

And third, we recommend that the federal government support the creation of a collaborative structure involving representatives from the Department of Canadian Heritage, provincial and territorial governments responsible for post-secondary education, post-secondary institutions in francophone minority communities and other sector stakeholders.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Ms. Roy.

Mr. Surette, you have five minutes.

[Allister Surette, President and Vice-Chancellor, Université Sainte-Anne]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Members of the committee, thank you for having us today and for this extremely important study you are doing of Canada's French-language post-secondary sector.

As the chair has already mentioned, I'm the president and vice-chancellor of Université Sainte-Anne, the only French-language post-secondary institution in Nova Scotia.

It offers university and college programs, as well as immersion and French-language programs and customized training.

The university offers its programs and services through its five campuses, the first of which is located in Halifax, with the remaining four being deeply rooted in Nova Scotia's Acadian and francophone regions, coastal, rural and remote regions, and official language minority communities.

The university is firmly rooted in its environment. It is a partner of choice to enhance the vitality of the regions surrounding its campuses and of Nova Scotia's Acadian region as a whole.

The university works closely with other francophone partners in Nova Scotia, such as the Conseil de développement économique de la Nouvelle-Écosse and the Conseil scolaire acadien provincial, in the furtherance of cultural, linguistic, social and economic development. On the one hand, in addition to training students, our infrastructure, such as the theatre, the library, the Centre acadien, the sports centre, among others also serves the local community. On the other hand, our main campus in the southwest part of the province is one of the largest employers in the region.

Over the years, our institution has distinguished itself by its firm desire to be actively involved in the communities, both for the development of the francophonie and for applied research aimed at the private sector, in order to ensure the betterment and the prosperity of our regions.

The university is a key partner in the action plan for francophone immigration to Nova Scotia, a plan that aims to grow the francophone population. With population growth a priority for the province of Nova Scotia, the province is aiming to double its total population by 2060.

Let's look at a few points and recommendations about funding.

I want to emphasize the importance, as the Official Languages Act indicates, of the federal government's commitment to and support for the vitality of minority communities and their development. The federal government must play a key role in protecting and promoting strong and present institutions to ensure that they serve our minority communities.

In addition to Université Sainte-Anne, Nova Scotia has 10 anglophone universities and one community college. Because of our small size and our francophone specificity, providing our programs and services costs us more, as the president of the FCFA mentioned, hence the importance of ongoing and stable federal funding. Even with this funding, we are far from being able to offer the same number of programs and services as our anglophone colleagues.

Given the limited Acadian and francophone population in Nova Scotia, recruitment outside of our province is essential. The recent announcement of a cap on study permits for international students will likely result in a decrease in enrolment in September 2024. This has a multi-year effect on our institutions. We have to maintain a certain number of registrations in order to maintain our programs. As a result, a 30% reduction in our international clientele will have an impact on our programs and will therefore pose another challenge for our institution this year.

More specifically, with respect to the Official Languages in Education Program, or OLEP, our regular funding hasn't been increased for years, and as you know, that funding wasn't indexed. For other OLEP programs, it is difficult to apply on a project-by-project basis due to limited human resources, and I think you've already heard a lot about the challenge of equal funding.

In conclusion, I support the recommendations made by the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne and by the FCFA, as well as several other recommendations heard here. I think the government should commit to supporting the creation of a collaborative structure—I can talk about that later—bringing together representatives of the Department of Canadian Heritage and other federal departments, provincial and territorial governments and post-secondary institutions.

Thank you for your attention, and I'm ready to answer your questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Surette.

Let's get started with the first round of questions. Each political party will have six minutes to ask their questions and listen to the answers.

Let's start with Bernard Généreux, representing the Conservatives.

Mr. Généreux, you have six minutes.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd also like to thank the witnesses.

Good day, Ms. Roy. I hope you're well.

Since we began our study, we've had the opportunity to speak with a variety of stakeholders. As you've stated, you organized, together with the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne, the États généraux sur le postsecondaire francophone en contexte minoritaire.

I will give you the opportunity to repeat the three recommendations in the report of this national dialogue, because you only briefly mentioned them in your presentation. I'd very much like for you to expand on them in your response.

That being said, we get the sense that, despite the Liberal government's additional spending over the past eight years, the problems have not yet been resolved. I'd like you to explain to me why, despite the new amounts allocated to the Canadian francophonie as a whole, this component isn't more functional or doesn't produce better results.

[Liane Roy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Généreux.

Indeed, I briefly mentioned three recommendations in my presentation. One of them was also mentioned by Mr. Surette.

These three recommendations can be found in the report of the États généraux sur le postsecondaire francophone en contexte minoritaire. They are recommendations 30, 31 and 32.

Recommendation 30 is as follows.

That the federal government introduce a tool to monitor all investments it makes in post-secondary education in francophone minority communities.

So this relates to the question you posed about funding.

This means that, given that post-secondary education is a key factor in the vitality of francophone and Acadian communities, given the mandate of Treasury Board, which was set out in Bill C‑13 and which we are all familiar with, and given the magnitude of the problems facing the post-secondary sector in minority regions, it is important to understand the importance of the nature of investments by all federal authorities.

Essentially, what we're saying is that the left hand really needs to know what the right hand is doing.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

So if I understand correctly, you're saying that that's not currently the case.

[Liane Roy]

I'm simply saying that we need to have a better understanding in order to get a broader picture of all the funds going to post-secondary education—

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Forgive me for interrupting, Ms. Roy.

When you talk of federal funds, are you also talking about funding for the provinces or strictly about funding for education?

[Liane Roy]

I'm also referring to funding earmarked for the provinces for post-secondary education, those that are identified in that way.

The Department of Canadian Heritage needs to target community development more directly, which goes back to what Mr. Surette mentioned. Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada, or IRCC, and Employment and Social Development Canada, or ESDC, for example, could also be involved.

We really need to make sure we can see the big picture in terms of education, research, innovation and infrastructure. Education doesn't exist in a vacuum. If we cast a broader net, then we're also talking about the Tri-Council research funding. There's innovation, and there's also infrastructure.

The second recommendation is as follows:

That the federal government fund the establishment of a mechanism to measure progress towards substantive equality of post-secondary education in francophone minority communities.

This builds on the first recommendation that deals with investments. We need to develop a new mechanism to measure real progress. Such a mechanism would allow us to collect data on the different dimensions of post-secondary education and determine if the federal government's investments are having the desired effects.

The way things are happening now is that funds are handed out, but their results are neither measured nor assessed. Are these funds having the desired effects?

The approach to developing this mechanism would recognize the particular social, cultural, scientific and economic contexts in which post-secondary institutions operate in francophone minority settings. As you know, Pointe-de-l'Église and Toronto have slightly different contexts.

The third recommendation is as follows:

That the federal government support the creation of a collaborative structure involving representatives from the Department of Canadian Heritage, provincial and territorial governments responsible for post-secondary education, post-secondary institutions in francophone minority communities and other sector stakeholders.

When this recommendation was made, IRCC hadn't yet announced any measures. Other stakeholders involved in specific fields could also participate in this collaborative structure in more specific cases.

So it's fairly clear that we need—

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

Ms. Roy, if you don't mind—

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Please respond in under 15 seconds.

[Bernard Généreux, Conservative, Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC]

I'd like to say one last thing. There is a lot of talk of the structures that should be set up, but maybe taking action would be preferable. That said, the witnesses will have an opportunity to expand on that in their answers to members' questions.

[The Chair, Liberal, René Arseneault]

Thank you, Mr. Généreux.

Ms. Koutrakis, you have six minutes.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being here.

Ms. Roy, I'd like to ask you the same question my colleague asked you. What form do you envision the collaborative structure taking? What would its vision and mission be? How will they work together, and to what end?

Could you go into greater detail for us?

[Liane Roy]

Thank you very much for the question.

The details are fairly straightforward. There needs to be a committee or a group tasked with monitoring the investments to see where the funds end up.

As I've said before, some of the funding that doesn't come from the Department of Canadian Heritage is earmarked for research, and others for innovation, for infrastructure or for post-secondary education.

What matters is that we know where these funds end up and what they're used for.

We need to ensure there is some follow-up and some accountability. Were these funds used for what they were meant to be used? Tracking these investments would allow us to know if the funds for post-secondary education in minority communities are producing the desired results and are going to the right place.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Are you aware of other similar structures that work? It could be a structure used by an association, for example.

[Liane Roy]

We need to ensure that someone is responsible for monitoring those funds. That could be done by an association or by a department.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

What I'd like to know is who exactly would be doing the monitoring. Who would be responsible for getting results?

[Liane Roy]

I think we need to look at it as a whole. What you're raising in your question is exactly what we'd like to see implemented. As we've said, the Association des collèges et universités de la francophonie canadienne could be responsible for ensuring the funds are going to the right places. That said, a department could also do it if that would be easier.

Just like for the modernization of the Official Languages Act, we need a conductor, someone who will ensure there's some accountability on the issue of where these funds are invested.

[Annie Koutrakis, Liberal, Vimy, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Roy.

Mr. Surette, in your view, what impact does your institution have on the minority language community in your area? How important is it to the sustainability of the francophonie on the local and provincial levels?

[Allister Surette]

I could speak at length about the impact of Université Sainte-Anne on Pointe-de-l'Église, a community of fewer than 10,000 people. If the university did not exist, the community would be entirely different on the social, cultural and economic levels.

I've been president of the university for 13 years. One of the commitments I made at the start of my term was to create a strategic focus that I like to call “community anchoring”.

I wanted to make sure that we weren't sitting in an ivory tower, in other words, I wanted the university to get involved in the community in many different ways.

For example, I wanted to make sure that the infrastructure on campus was accessible to the local community. I am thinking, among other things, of the theatre, the new soccer field, the new race track, the sports centre and the amphitheatres. All of those are available to the community. I also wanted to make sure that members of the administration, students and, above all, faculty who do research are very involved in the community. For example, we do a lot of applied research with the private sector, not to mention all the work we do in partnership with francophone and Acadian organizations to advance our communities.

I imagine I don't have much time, so—