Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Evidence of meeting #22 for Official Languages in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was draft.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Evidence of meeting #22 for Official Languages in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was draft.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker
Thank you.
Mr. Deschênes‑Thériault, you have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Cardinal, in your remarks, you talked about how the regulations should propose a methodology adapted to the requirements of substantive equality. What would that actually look like? Can you give us some examples?
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
First of all, what does substantive equality mean? According to the past 20 years of jurisprudence, even relating to the Official Languages Act, substantive equality means working to overcome obstacles to equality, what we call contextual obstacles, in order to bring about the advancement of the use and status of French and English in Canada, and so on. We have to come up with a methodology based on that. The other important part of that methodology is concrete measures, as I just explained to Mr. Godin.
If the notion of substantive equality is the starting point, it might have been useful, in the course of consultations and dialogues, to find out how communities define substantive equality. In fact, regulations stating that a record of the consultations will be kept is another way of saying they'll be shelved, isn't it? There should be a requirement to publish the results of those consultations, because when you work with minorities, you have to explain why their ideas were rejected. That's even in the Lund recommendations in Europe. Accountability to minorities is not some far-fetched notion.
Regarding concrete measures, part of the methodology could include considering whether something like “by and for” is an example of a positive measure that could promote substantive equality, or if the policy on francophone immigration is a positive measure.
I don't know if I'm answering your question, but those are a few avenues to explore.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
In terms of accountability, we heard from various stakeholders that the draft regulations did not adequately define the indicators to be used to assess or monitor the implementation of accountability. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that. You started to explain it earlier.
Also, what might concrete accountability mechanisms look like?
February 24th, 2026 / 5:05 p.m.
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
That's an interesting question because Treasury Board already provides accountability through its annual report. However, it's a self-assessment questionnaire. It asks folks to assess themselves. If I ask my students to assess themselves, they'll give themselves a nine out of 10 or 10 out of 10. Are self-assessment reports sufficient?
It may also be necessary to rewrite the questions to add some about substantive equality and the future part VII regulations. I'd like to see a special appendix in the Treasury Board report. There's a DEI appendix, so there should be a part VII appendix. This is an example of an accountability measure that is very relevant and is based on something that already exists. We're not making up something new; we're innovating based on an existing practice. These are small steps, but they can really tell us a lot in terms of accountability.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
Thank you.
You also talked about how the act includes a commitment to promoting French as part of Canada's diplomatic relations. That is in part VII. It's not mentioned in the draft regulations.
In your opinion, would it have been appropriate to be more explicit about the operational expectations and monitoring obligations arising from this commitment?
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Definitely. That's an example of substantive equality as well. This is a recognition that French is vulnerable and that something is lacking. This has been documented, and not just by journalists. At one point, a foreign affairs committee showed that there weren't enough francophones in Canadian diplomacy.
In the current geopolitical relations context, the Government of Canada's diplomatic action is essential, and it must be conducted in both official languages. The government can't conduct international relations in English alone. It must also conduct diplomatic relations in French and be more present in the international francophonie. The government also needs to work on scientific diplomacy. Perhaps they simply forgot to put it in the regulations, but I doubt it, since a lot of things are in there. We can't afford not to include it.
Liberal
Guillaume Deschênes-Thériault Liberal Madawaska—Restigouche, NB
I have one minute left, so I'm going to ask you one last question.
In your third recommendation, you talked about a lens that would help guide the implementation of the commitments in part VII. Can you help us understand what you mean by that lens and explain why such a tool matters in this context?
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
The concept of a lens already exists at Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship Canada. It already exists within the federal government. Why has the Treasury Board Secretariat not taken an interest in this tool? If we want to develop a more innovative methodology informed by the spirit of substantive equality for regulations relating to part VII that focus on substantive equality, we have to give ourselves the necessary tools. Lenses are the best tool, because they get us to ask the right questions about any given initiative, program or project. Lenses make us look at the differentiated impact of programs on target audiences—minorities in this case—and put forward corrective measures or ask stakeholders to put measures forward to achieve substantive equality and meet the objectives.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yvan Baker
Thank you very much. Your time is up.
I will now give the floor to Mr. Beaulieu for six minutes.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you.
Thank you, Ms. Cardinal. We've seen each other a number of times.
There is actually something very novel in the new Official Languages Act that concerns Quebec and francophones outside Quebec. Some sections reflect a more asymmetrical approach. It recognizes that French across Canada is in decline and in the minority. It recognizes that francophone and anglophone minorities have different needs. There are also sections suggesting that there will be measures to promote French in Quebec. It talks about advancing the existence of a majority-French society in a Quebec where the future of French is assured. Under positive measures, it talks about the necessity of protecting and promoting the French language in every province and territory.
However, to date, we have not seen any application of these new concepts. There are no new positive measures for the French language in Quebec. There have been no consultations on the francophone side, apart from the government. Treasury Board confirmed that. Naturally, the draft regulations advance nothing on that front either. Even the TALQ representatives, whom we were talking to earlier, pointed that out. There's nothing to help implement that. What are your thoughts on that?
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Thank you very much, Mr. Beaulieu.
Well, you're right. The Official Languages Act is very innovative, especially when it comes to part VII, its preamble and its principles of interpretation. It's really very interesting. I've had a chance to talk about it at many conferences. Canada has innovated in the official languages space by incorporating the concept of substantive equality.
However, once the concept has been incorporated, you have to have tools and methodologies for substantive equality. That's what the draft regulations should be doing, but they're not doing it. Instead, their policy approach is based on inertia and resistance, rather than innovation. This approach resembles part VII of the 1988 Official Languages Act, which was all talk. It's as if the draft regulations are also all talk and no binding action. However, the part VII regulations must support the implementation of that part.
Public servants also need to learn how to work with part VII. They've had many years to learn how to develop positive measures. At this point, we have to wonder about Treasury Board leadership. You know, when the reform was under way and there were all the consultations on modernization, I never supported the idea of putting Treasury Board in charge of Official Languages Act coordination just because it's a central entity. I've always believed in Canadian Heritage's leadership, and the draft regulations lead me to believe that I was right, since they reflect a policy approach to implementing part VII, rather than a more concrete approach.
For example, even Statistics Canada could collect data that make it possible to compare all francophone communities in Canada, rather than always comparing francophones outside Quebec with anglophones in Quebec. This kind of approach will have to be developed one day, and the regulations could support that.
Regarding consultations, again, it's a learning curve—
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
I'm going to interrupt you, because we don't have a lot of time.
Based on your reading of the act, should there be measures for the French language in Quebec?
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
According to my interpretation of the act, there are already measures to promote the French language in Quebec. Just look at the measure to promote the French language in Canada's diplomatic relations, for example. It's not just for Acadians, Franco-Manitobans or Franco-Ontarians.
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
It is a new measure. It didn't exist before. Look at the act. This measure is new.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
It's very indirect for Quebec, though. I don't disagree that diplomatic relations are important—
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
No, it's not indirect.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
—but on the ground, in Quebec, the French language is declining.
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Look at all the measures—
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
I looked at the measures in the public accounts that stem from official languages support programs. I look at them every year—we even try to find grants of less than $100,000—and there's nothing new at all for the French language in Quebec.
Emeritus Professor, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
There are education measures—