Evidence of meeting #7 for Pay Equity in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was banks.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Alison Hale  Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Marie Drolet  Research Economist, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada
Marina Mandal  Assistant General Counsel, Legal Branch, Canadian Bankers Association
Derrick Hynes  Executive Director, FETCO
Catherine Ludgate  Manager, Community Investment, Vancity Credit Union
Serena Fong  Vice-President, Government Affairs, Catalyst
Beth Bilson  Former Chair, Pay Equity Task Force and Interim Dean and Professor of Law, University of Saskatchewan, As an Individual
Janet Borowy  Member and Lawyer, Cavalluzzo Shilton McIntyre Cornish LLP, Equal Pay Coalition

6:15 p.m.

Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Alison Hale

No, it's because the information is actually at a payroll level. The data isn't even available currently at a more disaggregated level. Currently, to get that information, we're using payroll information that employers provide to Revenue Canada at an aggregate level. They don't provide that information at the employee level.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

How would you seek to get that information, then? Do you feel it would be useful towards addressing Ms. Gladu's concern?

6:15 p.m.

Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Alison Hale

I don't know whether employers could actually provide that information at an individual level. More detailed information is always of interest. The burden is on whoever's providing that information.

6:15 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Well, I totally understand the burden effect. The idea would be to have practical legislation. As much as we want to crack that last remaining 10%—or slightly higher in some cases, according to other measures—and see true equality right across the board, as a former small-business person, I'd much rather you'd just tell me what information you need and I'd send it to you, rather than having individual agencies asking for the information that may never have been tracked before to deal with these things. However, that doesn't really have to do with you.

I'll go back to the unexplained component, the gaps in data that lead to unknowns. Ms. Drolet, I heard you mention that if we had better data on wages, we could better explain wage gaps. I may be paraphrasing, but could you please explain that a little further? What data is StatsCan currently missing that would help not just parliamentarians but also policy-makers across the country to better understand the pay gap?

6:20 p.m.

Research Economist, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Marie Drolet

One case in point is that of work experience. We have information on the amount of full-year, full-time work experience of men and women, which is a great indicator for wages. However, we're missing information on the continuity of that work experience, the frequency of labour force withdrawals, the timing of those withdrawals, and the duration of those withdrawals.

You can imagine a situation in which a woman is anticipating frequent interruptions to her career, so she may be in lower-wage jobs, jobs that are easier to exit and enter into, for example.

6:20 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

If you did have that data, what kinds of differences do you think...? I know you can't say what data you'd get, but how would that give a group like this committee a better understanding of what things—

6:20 p.m.

Research Economist, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Marie Drolet

I think it would just give you a better idea of work histories and the different trajectories that people take throughout their careers and how their wages can progress throughout their lives.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

That's time, so thank you very much.

We are moving to Mr. Sheehan for five minutes.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Thank you very much.

It was a great presentation, very insightful as well, and I am very pleased to also say happy stats day to you as well. We're looking forward to it.

This committee's been working really hard at this for the last little while. We've heard a lot of different things and we're exploring different areas. We've been talking a lot about the provinces and the territories. Iceland is considered to be one of the models for closing the gender gap.

In any case, a persistent wage gap remains in rural areas. I represent the riding of Sault Ste. Marie, which is a city, but there is also a rural area. Northern Ontario is obviously part of that, and there are rural areas. I bring that up because in Iceland, in particular, it's the natural resource sectors and the fisheries that have persistent wage gaps.

Is there also a wider gender wage gap in rural areas of Canada and in certain economic sectors? If so, has the situation been improving in recent years?

6:20 p.m.

Research Economist, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Marie Drolet

I don't think I can comment on the rural areas. I think in some of the studies I have seen, there is a breakdown by large census metropolitan areas, or CMAs, and other areas, so maybe that could inform you.

In terms of certain economic sectors, pulling up some numbers today from our CANSIM tables, we have hourly wage rates in 1997 compared to 2015. You were commenting on the forestry, fishing, mining, and oil and gas resource. Here we see that in 1997 women earned 83¢ for every dollar earned by men, and by 2015 it had gone up to 92¢ in that particular sector, so that was a gain of 8.2 percentage points.

We also saw large gains in the construction sector. I think that construction was up almost 10 percentage points. These are just unadjusted gaps, unadjusted for anything; they are just raw gaps. These types of numbers are readily available from our labour force survey that's on CANSIM.

6:20 p.m.

Liberal

Terry Sheehan Liberal Sault Ste. Marie, ON

Does anybody want to add any more to that?

The other question I have goes back to the provinces and the territories again, and we keep talking about the various statistics coming out of various areas. In Ontario the Pay Equity Act came in in 1987. In Quebec the Pay Equity Act was passed in 1996, and then, of course, we've heard about Manitoba, Nova Scotia, New Brunswick, Prince Edward Island, and the Northwest Territories. They also have pay equity legislation.

Just on those specific dates, I want to hear in particular about Ontario and Quebec. What have we seen for the numbers, and how have these provinces been differentiated since they have enacted these legislations, both in the public sector and the private sector? Would you care to comment on that?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Alison Hale

I don't really have anything differentiated by private and public. All we have are just the numbers from 1997 and 2015 in front of us.

Basically, across all the provinces, the difference between the ratios has shrunk. As I said, for both Quebec and Ontario, they've all basically gone up. Is there one in particular that you're looking for? There were a quite a few provinces, and I could list off the numbers, but I think that rather than naming them off, I'll provide those to the clerk later so you'll have them by province.

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

That is the time.

6:25 p.m.

Research Economist, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Marie Drolet

One thing I'd like to mention is that—

6:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

That's the time. We have one last question and we have about four minutes for Mr. Albas. I'm sorry about that.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

A lot of these charts only go to 2008, and we keep hearing over and over that it's 2016. Is there any plan to update some of the charts that you've given us here? Some of them go that far. Is there a reason some of them just illustrate 1998 to 2008?

6:25 p.m.

Research Economist, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Marie Drolet

A lot of the supplemental slides go up to 2015. They were updated to 2015, but the more thorough analysis covered the 1998 to 2008 period. The analysis wasn't redone up to 2015.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Looking at some of the breakdowns you spoke about earlier, P.E.I., Nova Scotia, and New Brunswick obviously have a much different regime in place legislatively than Quebec. Why is it that there's also movement on those? It seems that in those provinces they've also reduced their gap. Is that from immigration? Is that from demographics?

I'm trying to get a better understanding because we've heard from a number of people who continue to push a proactive regime, and I guess the committee will decide whether or not the proactive regime is right. It seems to me that we're seeing right across the country that the pay gap is narrowing.

6:25 p.m.

Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Alison Hale

To really understand what's going on in each province, you'd have to do the sort of analysis we were presenting by province, and I'm not aware of that having been done.

6:25 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

Is this something on which StatsCan could issue a research project or engage with academia or with your own internal resources? I would really hate for the committee to put forward recommendations that aren't based on evidence.

By the way, this has probably been the most helpful presentation we've had in terms of identifying where we are on the road map.

Can you share your thoughts on that?

6:25 p.m.

Director, Labour Statistics Division, Statistics Canada

Alison Hale

A lot of the analysis that's in the first part of the deck is very sophisticated statistical analysis that takes a lot of time. It probably goes beyond the time, because from what I understand, this is a fairly short-lived committee.

On the straightforward data that we could update to 2015, that is based on information that's on our standard database that we could make available to the researcher, to the committee, who could just pull out some information that doesn't have that analysis. You could look at straightforward tabulations for specific areas of interest, but you wouldn't be able to do the sort of analysis to get into that through controlling for various variables. Those are things that take months of research, which is beyond what I think you could do in the time you have.

6:30 p.m.

Conservative

Dan Albas Conservative Central Okanagan—Similkameen—Nicola, BC

I just want to say again that I do appreciate the work you do. Independent analysis is very important, particularly to this issue, because I think we need to wrap our minds around where we are, why we have gotten there, and what can take us forward. I would hate to see us deploy assets and resources and put burdens on Canadians that won't necessarily impact.... Again, I think we need to have better research so that we can make better decisions.

Thank you.

6:30 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

I want to thank Ms. Hale and Ms. Drolet for being here today. We are going to suspend for just a few minutes while we change panels and bring in the teleconference.

Thank you very much. We're suspended.

6:35 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Anita Vandenbeld

We'll call to order again. Thank you very much for coming, especially at this hour.

We're very pleased this evening that we have with us three separate groups. We have the Canadian Bankers Association, and that is Marina Mandal, the assistant general counsel of the legal branch. From FETCO, we have Derrick Hynes, the executive director, and Elizabeth Cameron, the vice-chair. On video conference, we have from Saskatoon, from Vancity Credit Union, Catherine Ludgate, manager of community investment. Thank you very much for being here.

We will give each of you seven minutes because there are so many panellists, and we will start with Marina from the Canadian Bankers Association.

May 2nd, 2016 / 6:35 p.m.

Marina Mandal Assistant General Counsel, Legal Branch, Canadian Bankers Association

Thank you.

Thank you for inviting us to be here with you today to contribute to your review of pay equity in federally regulated sectors.

My name is Marina Mandal. I am the assistant general counsel at the Canadian Bankers Association. The CBA represents 59 domestic banks, foreign bank subsidiaries, and foreign bank branches operating in Canada.

The banking industry contributes significantly to job growth and to Canada's labour market. Banks and their subsidiaries employ over 280,000 Canadians. Banking is a knowledge-based industry that offers high-quality, well-paying jobs. Over 80% of jobs in the banking industry are full-time positions, and banks paid $24 billion in salaries and benefits to their employees in 2014.

The banks' human resources policies and practices are at the leading edge. Many banks enhance their employees' personal lives with comprehensive benefit programs and pension plans, generous leave policies, and alternative work arrangements, such as flexible work schedules, job-sharing, and telecommuting.

Canada's banks are leaders at fostering diverse workplaces. Many of our members have formal and informal diversity policies, practices, and programs in place aimed at promoting diversity, and a bank's diversity strategy is often overseen by a senior advisory council.

A workforce that is truly representative of the organization's external labour market and its customer base is something in which we strongly believe. Not only is building a diverse workforce the right thing to do, it also broadens a bank's ability to compete for top talent and respond to rapidly changing markets.

Regarding gender diversity specifically, as of 2014, women constituted 62% of the workforce at Canada's six largest banks, which is substantially more than any other federally regulated sector. The banking industry exceeds the government's benchmarks for representation of women at executive, professional, and middle management levels, with women making up 34.5% of all senior managers in banking, 50.4% of middle managers, and 50.5% of professionals.

Canada's banks have been committed to the principles of pay equity for more than 35 years. Banks have refined their job evaluation and compensation systems to ensure they are gender neutral and compliant with the Equal Wages Guidelines, which provide guidance on the application of the pay equity provisions in the Canadian Human Rights Act.

In order to ensure that compensation is gender neutral, banks have established internal pay equity plans and have implemented a number of policies and procedures to ensure equitable compensation for men and women. This includes undertaking regular audits to identify pay differences, requiring that compensation decisions be based on a set of gender-neutral factors, conducting spot checks to ensure there are no biases in the decisions regarding compensation, and conducting pay equity maintenance exercises to correct any salary gaps. Canada's banks strongly believe in equal pay for work of equal value and will continue our leadership in this area.

As the committee has already heard previously, there is a distinction between pay equity and the gender wage gap. In addition to their efforts on pay equity, banks are minimizing the wage gap by implementing human resource strategies to encourage an increasing number of women to enter into senior executive roles. For example, banks have implemented staffing protocols to promote increased representation of women in senior positions, provide access to training and leadership development programs, and support initiatives that promote the advancement of women in banking.

We understand the committee has been mandated to propose a plan for the federal government to implement a new pay equity regime, either through legislation or through other means. While the banking industry is supportive of pay equity, a more complex and prescriptive pay equity regime will not have the desired effect of closing the gender wage gap in Canada. As you consider options moving forward, we would encourage the committee to take into account the following overarching principles in drafting its recommendations to the government.

First, a new federal regime for pay equity must remain sufficiently flexible and take into account differences in the size of workforces among federally regulated employers, the types of businesses represented, corporate structure, and workforce composition. A one-size-fits-all approach is not appropriate for pay equity.

Second, it should take into account the degree to which pay equity has already been achieved by an individual employer and not impose onerous new rules and requirements where they are not needed. This will allow the government to focus on areas where outcomes need to be improved.

Third, a new pay equity regime should build on existing precedents and structures. It is appropriate that protection of the human right to be free from gender discrimination should remain with the Canadian Human Rights Commission.

Last, it should be clear about its objectives. The focus should be on eliminating systemic discriminatory practices in pay systems and on programs to increase development opportunities and promote the advancement of women broadly.

In closing, the banks are fully committed to the principles of pay equity. Having a flexible, efficient, and effective regulatory framework would support the objectives of pay equity.

Thank you again for the opportunity to present our views, and I look forward to your questions.