Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Mainly from among assistant deputy ministers in the Public Service. There are also exceptional cases where people are recruited from other levels of government, from the private sector or from the volunteer sector.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

That is indeed a substantial range, and they also come from civil society as well as from the Public Service.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Not as much, it is exceptional for us to recruit from civil society; we recruit mainly from the Public Service.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

Do deputy ministers, for one reason or another or because of decisions they may have made, end up either teaching university towards the end of their career before retirement or holding a post other than that of deputy minister?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Yes. For various reasons, deputy ministers sometimes take a sabbatical. This can be done in international organizations such as the World Bank or the International Monetary Fund. There is also the Skelton-Clark program at Queen’s University.

These are programs or posts that are sometimes used for a deputy minister’s sabbatical or during a period of transition. And the Skelton-Clark post is such an example at Queen’s.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

It could also be at Ottawa University, or whatever the means that—

[Marc O'Sullivan]

It can be at university. Indeed, there are sometimes arrangements made with universities.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

In such a case, are they still paid by the State or are they considered to be on leave without pay when they go teach or work elsewhere?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

It depends on the circumstances. In the Skelton-Clark example, the government continues to pay their salaries. In the case of international organizations such as the World Bank, that organization pays the salary. It depends.

[Richard Nadeau, Bloc, Gatineau, QC]

I yield the floor to my colleague.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You spoke of the domino effect. I suppose that the filling of some deputy minister posts is planned. Other than evaluating the various incumbents already on the job, are these people consulted on their interest in continuing in the same position or being assigned to another department or somewhere else?

In such a case, is their preference considered?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Yes. There is a feedback process during annual appraisal. The comments are passed on to the deputy and that is also the occasion for the deputy minister to discuss his or her future projects with the Clerk.

Most of these people are in their fifties. The number of years they wish to continue working before taking retirement is thus a consideration. They indicate whether they wish to continue working in their department or if they would like to move onto other things at some point. They also indicate what fields interest them. This discussion takes place every year with each deputy minister.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Are these wishes generally acted upon? Sometimes?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

We take them into account wherever practicable.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I understand.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Other needs must be weighed.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Of course.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Laforest.

Mr. Williams, for seven minutes.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

On the evaluation of deputies, you mentioned all these different people you consult. Do you read the Auditor General's reports, too, to see what criticisms she has of a department when you talk to deputies?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Yes, that's taken into account. The assessment made on the basis of performance with respect to management issues is covered, first and foremost, by the input provided by the Secretary of the Treasury Board and covers issues such as that.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

But you do take the Auditor General's reports and the failures that she's identified into consideration?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Obviously, yes, if there's been an issue raised, that's one issue on the table.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You mention the policy that there's basically three areas of examination: policy and program commitments, management commitments, and personal leadership. I think every taxpayer in the country knows that there are always missing billions in Ottawa. The question is, I ask them, tell me where it is and we'll find it and stop the leakage.

When you're doing an assessment of deputy ministers, does efficiency and economy of program management come into your discussions, and how do you apply it if it does?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Well, there again, it's the input provided by the Treasury Board Secretariat that is key. That's the input we—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

They don't do very much. We know that.