Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Marc O'Sullivan]

For DM-2 and DM-3, it's up to 13% at-risk pay, with a potential 7% bonus, and for DM-4--there are only two of those, the Clerk of the Privy Council and the Deputy Minister of Finance--it's up to 17% with a potential of 8% bonus for surpassing the objectives.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

This, of course, is based on a pretty decent pay to start with. What's the range for deputy ministers?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Perhaps you'll bear with me.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You'll need a calculator.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

It's my BlackBerry. I forgot to bring it with me, and so I asked someone—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's a big number. It's hard to carry around.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Effective April 1, the salary range of a DM-1 is $170,000 to $200,000. For a DM-2, it's $195,500 to $230,000. For a DM-3, it's $218,800 to $257,500. And for a DM-4, it's $245,100 to $288,400.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm curious--is the Auditor General's role similar, and the Comptroller General's? Do they come under this also, or does anybody in their departments?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

We get feedback in terms of the assessment of the deputy ministers from the Treasury Board Secretariat, so they would have, among other things, the feedback from the Comptroller General. The Auditor General doesn't have a direct link to this, but as I mentioned—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry, I meant their actual jobs. Is their pay in this program--either one of them?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

The Auditor General is done separately from deputy ministers. The Comptroller General is part of the performance management for deputy ministers. I'll have to verify the Auditor General; can you just bear with me?

Because of her status, I don't think there's performance pay for the Auditor General.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You see, that's where I was going, and if you'd answered differently, I would have gone in a different direction, but you said it right there. My concern is that we're trying to get people to stay to certain standards whether they like it or not; whether the minister wants to hear it, whether the department wants to do it, we want them to stay within certain reporting parameters. You know why; you've heard us commenting on it. We've got this example. We're not beating a political dead horse here, but we're using that as a real example to prevent it in the future.

I would understand that with the Auditor General; you wouldn't want to have anything about her role to reflect on whether she gets her pay or not.

As for deputies, it says to me that there's more opportunity now for an accounting officer, being human, to perhaps think about themselves in a way that they otherwise wouldn't if their pay wasn't reflected. MPs can have angry constituents or someone offside or whatever, but it's not going to affect your ability to pay your mortgage. It's a political issue, and it's separate and apart from your income.

Here I have some concerns about how that plays into this, so why don't you talk to me and alleviate some of my concerns that this is not happening? It is a worry; I have this worry about...just human nature. It's not bad people, but human nature. You know--the idea that I'm not only going to make a stink, but I'm also going to affect my career, and I'm also going to affect $10,000, $20,000, $30,000 of real cash that I was looking forward to this year.

Talk to me. Raise my comfort level, please.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

I'll try.

When you look at any compensation regime for any large employer, there's an acknowledgement that you want to have a portion of that salary based on performance--not guaranteed absolutely, but based on performance. My colleague is just confirming that because of the Auditor General's status as an agent of Parliament, there is no such performance pay for her because of that independence. The same thing happens, for example, for heads of quasi-judicial tribunals. There is no performance pay for heads of quasi-judicial tribunals, because it could be seen as an attempt by the government to influence their decision-making.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

The Comptroller General is. If I can just take a little sidestep here, on the Comptroller General, I have to tell you that that we keep building up that role, and everybody who rolls in here downplays it. We're really going in two very different directions, so I'll leave that with you. You tell me we don't want to do that with the Auditor General because that's a unique, special role, but it's okay to fold the Comptroller General into the deputy world when we're looking at this comptroller as being one of our key safety measures.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Right now, under the current structure, the Comptroller General is within the deputy minister community and so is assessed as all the other deputies. The recommendation by the Advisory Committee on Senior Level Retention and Compensation to include at-risk pay within the compensation for deputies was recognition that this was the overall trend in compensation. There has to be one element of the salary that's a reflection of the person's ability to attain their objectives.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

How many people don't get their bonuses? How many actually get their pay cut, as a quick percentage? Please give us just a thumbnail sketch.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Overall, when you look at all the deputy ministers and heads of agencies who could have received performance pay in 2004-05, 7% did not receive any at-risk pay; 46% received some of their at-risk pay; 27.8% received the maximum of at-risk pay; and 19% received their bonus. The guideline from the Conference Board of Canada is saying that when you have an at-risk pay compensation regime, roughly at least 5% should not receive anything, and 20% at most should receive the bonus, so this falls within these parameters.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have more questions, but I have no more time.

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Christopherson. Thank you, Mr. O'Sullivan.

Mr. Pacetti, for seven minutes.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to the witnesses for appearing.

Regarding the Privy Council, is your responsibility only for the deputy ministers, or are you responsible for other appointments in the departments?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

We're responsible for those who are appointed by the Governor in Council, so that's the deputy ministers. We don't have a direct role vis-à-vis all the other public servants within departments.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

How is your role going to change in the Accountability Act? Are you not going to be appointing the comptrollers, because the comptrollers will almost have the same role as the deputy ministers, if I'm understanding what's going to happen. Is that correct?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

I'm sorry, the comptrollers—?

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

The comptrollers in every department are going to have just as much power as the—

[A voice]

Chief financial officer.