Public Accounts Committee on Nov. 7th, 2006

[Pacetti]

Sorry, it's the chief financial officers.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

They would be public servants, and they would be appointed under the Public Service Employment Act.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

So would you have no influence over them on those things?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

No.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

In response to one of your questions, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but you state that the deputy ministers don't have a fixed term, and you don't have a problem with this because there's no lack of accountability. But I don't see it that way.

What would you do? How would you give it accountability? Deputy ministers are changing all the time. So how do we put accountability in there, because as soon as the problem comes about, you just transfer them out? Then there's nobody who's going to be accountable? So I have no problem with deputy ministers being fixed, because they're going to be accountable. I can't see any other solution.

Now, I understand that things happen where sometimes there is incompatibility with a minister; that's life. There are certain times people do pass away, or personal events happen, but we can probably put those in a disclaimer or some type of a condition that will allow deputy ministers to be transferred. I don't see any other way for you to avoid the accountability aspect.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

I think that irrespective of the length of term, you'll always have former DMs and DMs currently in office, so the issue of accountability is the—

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but from what I understand, the recommendation of this committee is a fixed term, so nobody can really decide; it's fate. If we keep it the way it is now, the PMO or the Privy Council decides when to shift the deputy ministers. You can decide, or you can make the decision of why you want to do it, but the majority of the time, or some of the time, it'll be because there's a lack of accountability.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

I understand the perception, but let me assure you that shuffles are not made to help someone evade responsibility. There are instances where a more experienced DM is brought in to help resolve a long-standing issue within a department, and you want to get somebody with the right background, or simply somebody with more experience and the ability to drive through solutions for that type of problem. But it's never for the purpose of avoiding responsibility.

[Massimo Pacetti, Liberal, Saint-Léonard—Saint-Michel, QC]

Thank you.

Yasmin.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I have two quick questions. How many long-serving deputy ministers do you have, and how long have they been there?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

I'm pretty confident that Mr. Fellegi is the longest serving. I believe it's been for 21 years at Statistics Canada. That's exceptional. I would have to get back to the committee in terms of who the others are down that list.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do you consider their time served as ADMs to be part of that long serving, because ADMs get promoted to DM?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

No. When we talked about the 3.5-year average, this was calculated from the moment DMs were appointed as the deputy minister of the department to the moment when they were shuffled out.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do they have a mandatory retirement age, or is there a tenure after which they have to retire?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

No, there isn't a mandatory retirement age, although after someone is eligible for their full pension, you would have to wonder why they would stay much longer.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

I have a question for you in regard to bonuses. Has there been any time when the deputy ministers have had no bonus, or had their pay cut for non-performance?

My question comes back to the issue I had at public accounts during the gun registry. The deputy ministers who gave orders to bypass the Comptroller General got promoted and we were left holding the bag. Could you tell me how you reconcile those two in your performance management?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

I'm sorry, I can't comment on the specifics of that case. In terms of deputies who do not get performance pay overall, of both deputies and deputy heads of agencies in 2003-04, 8% didn't receive any at-risk pay.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

No, that's not what I meant. I meant sanctions.

When you talk about deputy ministers getting bonuses, it's for performance. But when they do not perform, what happens to them?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

A portion of their salary is dependent on their performance. If they haven't performed well, if they haven't achieved objectives, then they don't get that salary.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

But they get the base salary anyway.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

Yes, they do.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

They don't get a bonus, but they get the base salary.

[Marc O'Sullivan]

There are consequences for their careers.

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Do they get demoted?

[Marc O'Sullivan]

I'd have to get back to you on whether there's been an instance where someone has been appointed downward.