Public Accounts Committee on Dec. 12th, 2006

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I call the meeting to order and extend to everyone here a very warm welcome. This is the second meeting on chapter 5, “Relocating Members of the Canadian Forces, RCMP and Federal Public Service”, of the November 2006 report of the Auditor General of Canada.

With us today, we don't have the auditor, but we have from her office, Ronnie Campbell, the assistant auditor general. He's accompanied by Bruce Sloan, principal.

From Public Works and Government Services Canada, we have back with us, Ian Bennett, the acting assistant deputy minister, acquisitions. With him is Richard Goodfellow, manager, project delivery services division, and Ellen Stensholt, senior general counsel, legal services.

We also have a representative from Envoy Relocation Services Inc., Mr. Bruce Atyeo. Welcome, Mr. Atyeo. And from Royal Lepage relocation services we have Mr. Raymond Bélair. I want to welcome each and every one of you.

Mr. Williams has a point of order.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm certainly pleased to welcome our guests here this afternoon. As I mentioned last week, we are a committee of Parliament, and Parliament is an institution of accountability, not management. I have some concerns about our asking questions and having witnesses today from Envoy Relocation or Royal Lepage. We know absolutely nothing about their participation in this contract. We only have the report of the Auditor General on the government side.

On the other thing that concerns me, I understand that a lawsuit has already been filed. If that is the case, I'm trying to figure out why on earth we are getting ourselves into the middle of this.

You will recall the need for us to be independent of government and the courts. Not only do we have a longstanding tradition of never getting involved in issues when there are legal proceedings ongoing, but I also draw your attention to the time when Mr. Justice Gomery wanted to get transcripts of the public accounts committee hearings in the past and was denied. We certainly wouldn't want answers here by Envoy and Royal Lepage to be drawn into a court proceedings, and so on.

I move that we not hear from Envoy and Royal Lepage today because I think it's quite inappropriate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

As I indicated to you last week, this perhaps would not be my recommended course of action. I think I made that clear to the committee. However, the committee voted on a motion, and it was passed, to call both Mr. Bélair and Mr. Atyeo to the committee. That is the reason why they're here.

At the last meeting I went through a caution to the members on the line of questioning. I agree with your line of reasoning. This committee is not normally mandated to investigate outside private contractors. Our mandate is the accountability of government operations; the principles of prudence, property, economy, and efficiency within government, not outside of government. We don't normally investigate private contractors.

But again, that was a motion put to the committee. It was debated. It was passed. They're here. I think it would be improper now to move another motion to have them dismissed.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Before we begin, could I ask why we don't have representatives from the Department of National Defence and Treasury Board again?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'd prefer to deal with this issue first, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I thought you ruled on it. When you're done we can do that one.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Okay.

Mr. Williams.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Notwithstanding any inconvenience of the witnesses in being here, I still think it's inappropriate that we hear from them. Therefore, would a motion to reconsider our invitation be in order?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

The committee can always rescind its own decision, which was made two weeks ago. You're moving that the committee not hear from Mr. Atyeo and Mr. Bélair. I think that's your motion.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

That is correct—as representatives of Envoy Relocation Services, Inc. and Royal Lepage.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

The motion has been presented. We had a lengthy debate on this, Mr. Williams. I don't believe you were at the meeting. Are there any other comments on the motion?

Would you like to comment, Monsieur Laforest?

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I do not see why we should come back to that. A motion was tabled to invite and hear witnesses, to give the committee all the information it needs to understand the situation that the Auditor reported to us in response to a request from the Standing Committee on Public Accounts.

So I do not see why we should now go back on a decision made democratically by the majority of the committee. This situation is difficult.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson. I'd ask members to keep their comments brief.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

It's a question. Does this require someone who voted in the majority last time, since it's a motion of reconsideration?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You're above my head here, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I know.

Under some rules, it requires someone who voted in the majority to actually be in order to place a motion to reconsider a previous motion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No, that's not—

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Okay, then we should just stay the course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'd like to put the question, if I may. This will be a recorded vote on Mr. Williams' motion to exclude Mr. Bélair from Royal LePage and Mr. Atyeo from Envoy Relocation Services.

[Marcel Proulx, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

On the same point of order that Mr. Williams had a while ago, have we had legal representations for these witnesses not to appear here today, or are we just dealing with Mr. Williams' change of mind? Well, it is not a change of mind, because he had been against it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We have no legal representation; the committee is the master of its own proceedings.

(Motion negatived: nays 6; yeas 5)

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

I'm going to continue on with a few opening remarks.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Go ahead, Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

May I ask why we don't have representatives here from Treasury Board and the armed forces, as we did at our last meeting?