Public Accounts Committee on Feb. 12th, 2007

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, merci beaucoup, Madame Brunelle.

Mr. Christopherson.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Are you sure it is not the Conservatives' rotation?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You're more important than they are.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I don't believe you without an audit.

First, at the end of the auditor's comments today, she suggested we may want to ask for a detailed action plan, which we've done and which you've committed to by the end of the month. Second, will a timetable for its implementation come along with the plan? Third, we asked for a progress report. I would ask you, Deputy, what would you consider a reasonable time for your first progress report, and what intervals do you think is a reasonable period for you to report back to us on how you're doing?

[Morris Rosenberg]

If we provide the action plan to you by the end of the month, then midway through this next fiscal year, which should be around September, would be a reasonable time, and then another one at the end of the year.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Auditor General, does that sound reasonable from where you sit?

[Sheila Fraser]

That sounds reasonable. It would obviously depend on the deadlines the department has given itself. If it's within a year, then it should be six months and perhaps another six months after that, or something like that.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

We'll take that under advisement in our report writing.

By the way, I don't know about my colleagues, but my sense is that we're very similar. When it has to do with health, safety, kids, the obvious sorts of things, we get very prickly, and that is the right approach.

You've done an excellent job here today. One step out of line and we were going to be all over you, I can tell you that. But you and your team have done an excellent job of dealing with this in a very forthright way. I just hope the implementation plan and the progress report are as good as your words were here today. I will obviously give you the benefit of the doubt, but I want you to know it was very impressive today.

I would like to ask Ms. Cartwright about a discussion she had with Mr. Pat Martin on the health committee last Wednesday. He was asking about asbestos, and as you know, in the Canada Gazette dated November 11, there is reference to asbestos products in toys for children. I find it confusing because the statement is that “the presence of asbestos in consumer products poses a health risk that also needs to be addressed”. Then you go on to provide a chart that says that asbestos is okay, and this is the wording: “ A product that is used by a child in learning or play”. Requirements: “Airborne asbestos cannot become separated from the product”.

It sounds to me as if under certain conditions you're allowing asbestos in children's toys. Please explain.

[Susan Cartwright, Associate Deputy Minister, Department of Health]

Mr. Chair, there is a confusion of the Susans here. It was actually Susan Fletcher who had the exchange with Mr. Martin. I'm sorry.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm sorry. You're both on this page and you're both Susans. You're right, it is Ms. Fletcher.

[Susan Cartwright]

Could I ask Ms. Fletcher to respond?

[Susan Fletcher]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

There is some confusion around what was gazetted in November last year. We have a number of asbestos regulations, and what we gazetted last year was a refinement of all those regulations into one place, so that we didn't have them in a variety of places. There was no change through that gazetting in what we did in the way of protecting the health of Canadians.

That being said, you are entirely right. When you read that chart, it does say.... And when we first put in the regulation on asbestos in children's products, the only science that existed showed that asbestos is only a problem if it can be inhaled. I asked the question because Mr. Martin asked me what happens if the child happens to eat it. There is no current science that suggests that eating asbestos is a problem.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

What if it breaks apart in playing? Have you ever seen a kid with a toy that lasts longer than an hour?

[Susan Fletcher]

The regulation says it cannot break apart, even in play, and become able to be inhaled.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I don't have a lot of time.

[Susan Fletcher]

I do want to say that to the best of our knowledge there are no products on the market today that have asbestos in them.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Do you test? That's what I want to get at. We found out there's a deficiency in testing, and I hear you say the science is okay as long as it's this way. Asbestos in toys makes everybody react. Adding it all up, I want to make sure this isn't one of those that got through that shouldn't have.

[Susan Fletcher]

Absolutely, and the deputy has spoken about our cyclical enforcement, especially in children's toys. We annually check against our regulation of children's toys to verify whether there are any that have come on the market that might be hazardous. Also, we will continually monitor the science, not only in Canada but worldwide. If any science comes along that will tell us there is evidence that there is a problem, you can count on it, we will be out there, first of all working with the manufacturers, but then regulating if necessary.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'd like to say that's okay, but the parent in me is having a problem letting go. I don't understand why we would even risk it. We know the lives of people who mine asbestos are in danger. There is the whole chain of providing it as we're now looking at energy. It's not just what you do, but what it takes to get there, and the amount of water, air, and energy it takes to process something. It's the same thing here. Would it not be safer, given all the things you say in here about keeping asbestos away, to have a regulation that said no asbestos, especially in a kids' product?

[Susan Fletcher]

As a parent I would agree with you. The issue for us is that the Hazardous Products Act only allows us to regulate a product off the market if we have good scientific evidence that shows there's a problem. We can't take it off as a precautionary measure; that's not allowed under the act. We have to make sure we are always watching, one, to make sure there are no products on the market that we think are problematic; and two, that there's no new science emerging that will tell us there's a problem where we didn't think there was hitherto.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

You talk about some that might be problematic. Again, I admit I'm coming from a very simplistic point of view, but it seems to me as soon as you see the word “asbestos” that should be a problem and you should be testing it. Is that the case? Do we test everything here in Canada that has asbestos in it that is geared to be sold to our children?

[Susan Fletcher]

No, we don't, but when a product comes to our attention that's for children and it has asbestos in it, we would test it. As I said, to our knowledge there's none on the market at this point in time.

[David Christopherson, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I'm going to come back again. Wouldn't it make sense to just say that in Canada you can't have that product in there, period?

[Susan Fletcher]

Unfortunately, the Hazardous Products Act, the way it's currently written, does not allow that.