Evidence of meeting #44 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victoria.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

André Gladu  As an Individual
Alex Smith  Committee Researcher
Ned Franks  Professor Emeritus of Political Science, Queen's University, As an Individual

5:15 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

If we don't resolve this, then clearly we're going to adopt this document, or something very close to it, and then we'll invite a deputy in here; the deputy will come in and follow the PCO rules, and we'll be asking questions based on our protocol, and then we'll be at loggerheads.

So first, is that going to happen? Second, in any attempt to avoid this, we need to kick it out of the staff arena and get it totally into the political arena. That's why I would support it, notwithstanding that I think you're right, Chair, that it may not get us anywhere and we might lose a bit of time. But if we get into a constitutional gridlock here at the end of the table, it's going to be pretty big.

The first thing the rest of the House will want to know is what procedures we followed. Did we make every effort to try to come to a resolution, particularly in a minority government? We need to have solid answers to that. This would provide us with that. At no point have you, on our behalf, talked to the political people, who would be the ministers in this case.

Secondly, I would just feel more comfortable, if we're going to start getting into any kind of situation like this, let's do it between politicians and politicians, not politicians and staff. That's always problematic.

So that's another good reason for sending the letter. It kicks it out of the staff level and puts it into the political arena. Then we can deal with it in a political way--nice-nice at first, and then if we don't get the cooperation we need, believe me, it's going to be hard-ass all the way.

5:15 p.m.

A voice

How do you translate that?

5:15 p.m.

Christopherson

I don't know. I can barely get it out in English.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Fitzpatrick is next, then Mr. Sweet.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK

I totally agree with Mr. Christopherson. I think there's probably a lot of fear among public servants about this whole idea of accounting officers. The minister was talking about how the ministers are supposed to know everything all the time, but maybe that isn't always the case. Maybe there is some really good merit in trying to get that dialogue going on this situation. We may find out we really don't have a big problem.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Sweet.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON

In light of Mr. Franks' testimony on the political direction, let's test him on that, send a letter, and demand that meeting between Mr. Franks and the President of the Treasury Board.

5:15 p.m.

NDP

David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON

It may have to be technically a meeting between the minister or the minister's designate and the chair, and the chair can bring along Dr. Franks. But if we're going to have this at the political-to-political level, then that meeting has to at least connect at the political level, and then others can continue. If the political people waive their being there, and they want to meet at a staff level, then fine, but I'm trying to get total control into the hands of two politicians: the chair of our committee as our representative, and the appropriate minister at the other side.

5:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

I'd be scared that we're off the rails. We could meet in two or three months' time and we'd have to stop....

Mr. Williams.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

We can't ask Dr. Franks to go to the Treasury Board or the PCO and negotiate and come back. We cannot do that.

We cannot do that, because he is an academic with first class credentials, and for him to come back and say, “I stand, and they agree with everything I say”...or if he capitulates and changes, then what happens to his credibility as an intellectual academic presenting a report to Parliament? Therefore, to put him in this totally impossible situation cannot be.

He has presented his best work to us. We accept that or we don't accept that. We listen to the Treasury Board, and it's up to us to make our decision. It is not for us to ask Dr. Franks to go and negotiate, and massage, and do whatever it is with the government.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Mr. Wrzesnewskyj, I'm sorry.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

Mr. Chair, I'd like to suggest that we actually accommodate both points of view, that we move to accept the report that's been produced by Mr. Franks and accept, as he made clear, that it is a work in progress. I think it's a tremendously useful tool. However, at the same time, we should extend an invitation to the minister, the President of the Treasury Board, to come here before us and explain a different point of view that they may have. This is the right arena in which to do this. I believe we can do both of these at the same time.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Just to make this clear, you're moving to adopt the report? We're not going to vote on it today, by the way.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON

That's correct.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

We'll set a time at some future date, and again it will come back to the steering committee--

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

Pablo Rodriguez Liberal Honoré-Mercier, QC

Why can't we move it today?

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

The bells are ringing.

I will immediately contact the.... We have the bell going.

Very briefly, Mr. Laforest, because I do want to adjourn.

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Mr. Chairman, I fully agree with Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. I think we should adopt this report because we have been working on it for some time. If we don't, the meetings we want to have, as well as those with people from the Privy Council, simply won't happen. We have to take one step forward, and the rest will follow.

5:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy

Okay. We have the motion on the floor. It's certainly not going to be discussed any further right now, but we'll put it on an agenda very soon, at the next meeting.

The meeting is adjourned.