Evidence of meeting #44 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was victoria.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I know you weren't involved with Public Works, but I do want your opinion because you have many years of experience.
Mr. Arès, in his letter, stated that negotiations with Place Victoria were inconsistent with the six principles for renewing a lease on site. You'd be familiar with that, being in charge of a department. Do you agree with that comment by Mr. Arès that what transpired here was not consistent with the six principles for renewing a lease?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I would have agreed with Mr. Arès's comments had he been unable to bargain down the price with owners of Place Victoria. It's important to remember that they did lower the price from $430 to $308.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
I have only two minutes, and I'd like to deal with a few other issues.
He also states in his letter that the Canadian Economic Development Agency had concurred and agreed with the move. I know employees sometimes don't like change, but you have to move sometimes. That's the way the world goes. I had to move from Prince Albert to this area when I became an MP. Maybe I don't like it, and we'll move Parliament there.
Would you agree with his point that the decision to move had been made by the Canadian Economic Development Agency?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Yes. I mentioned that I had personally signed a letter agreeing to move to Place Bonaventure.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
He was very concerned that other interests had hijacked this process and that it wasn't in the interests of public management. You're under a duty of prudence and probity as a deputy minister when suspicions are raised.
I understand what happened here. You were involved in a process, with the specifications and the renewal, and all of a sudden you were out of the loop and Mr. Drouin's letter came. You were out of the loop, and from there on in you weren't involved with the process. Is that correct?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
Once the negotiations between Public Works and the owners of Place Victoria were completed, I had to accept the fact that we were going to stay there. I became involved at the end of the process, but I did not take part in the negotiations. That was not my role.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
Brian Fitzpatrick Conservative Prince Albert, SK
But as the person in charge of the department, I think you should have gone after them.
4:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Monsieur Laforest, deux minutes.
I said two minutes. You are into three minutes here. I'm sorry, but that was the deal.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I want to come back to Mr. Drouin's letter. You said that you did not agree with the idea of his sending that letter to the Minister of Public Works. In the course of your subsequent conversation with Mr. Drouin, did you tell him that this would entail significant additional costs, given that negotiations with Place Bonaventure had already begun?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I told him there could possibly be additional costs. I presented it as a possibility.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Why did you present it as a possibility, though, when you knew that the process was already underway?
4:20 p.m.
As an Individual
I was Chair of the Quebec Federal Council which brings together the administrators of federal departments in Quebec. Consequently, I knew that a number of departments needed office space. I assumed, rightly or wrongly, that a number of those departments could use that accommodation.
4:20 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
However, according to the information you have given us, Mr. Drouin decided not to correct the letter he had already sent.
4:25 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
You said that there might be additional costs, and Mr. Drouin still maintained his decision. I find that absolutely appalling, Mr. Chairman. We have not been given answers to these questions. Mr. Gladu said there could be additional costs. Despite that, a government official wrote a letter to the Minister of Public Works asking that employees be allowed to remain at Place Victoria, even though there could be additional costs. And the Minister did nothing.
We absolutely must hear from Mr. Drouin, because Mr. Gladu did not answer all of our questions.
That's it for me, Mr. Chairman.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
4:25 p.m.
NDP
David Christopherson NDP Hamilton Centre, ON
Thanks, Chair.
I have to say I don't really know where else to go in terms of questions here. I still have questions, but this is not the place where I'm going to get the answers, so I'll be seeking some kind of support from the committee that we take a next step. I don't want this to drag out forever, Chair, but the answers still aren't here, and we're left with a $4.5 million goof-up that has to be accounted for by somebody.
With all due respect, sir, thank you for your time today. You've answered thoroughly and completely, but I have no more questions for you, sir.
I'm done, Chair. Thanks.
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Christopherson.
On behalf of the committee, I want to thank you for coming here today, Mr. Gladu, and for sharing your wisdom and insight on these events. I know these events occurred three or four years ago, so you had to do some work. You didn't come here cold. You obviously did some work for this.
Do you have any closing remarks, Mr. Gladu, or any closing comments?
4:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you, Mr. Gladu.
Colleagues, we're going to move on. The next item I'd like to deal with before calling Dr. Franks, if I may, is the minutes of the subcommittee that have been circulated. There are only two paragraphs, the two items.
One item is that the subcommittee agreed to have the Library of Parliament examine the possibility of a study on statutory and delegated responsibilities and contracts that are made under statutory responsibilities. This will come back to the committee once we get it a little further along. We're going to get the Library of Parliament to probe the market, and then they'll come back to the committee.
Second, we also approved the draft schedule for the next five or six weeks. Of course we have the public corrections ombudsman issue next Monday, we have the RCMP issue next Wednesday, and then we go on a two-week break.
Mr. Williams.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I apologize, but I came in late, Mr. Chairman. I'm not sure I have a copy of this report. We seem to be buried in paper here, with everything but the report.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you very much.
I have a problem with three-hour meetings, Mr. Chairman. Sometimes there will be votes after the meetings, and sometimes there won't be votes, so we can't plan a three-hour meeting. Two hours have been adequate for years and years. Every other committee gets by with two, normally. These ad hoc meetings that are sometimes three and sometimes two give the members and give me some concern, because I can't plan my day. Therefore, I would like to see us just get back to regular two-hour meetings. Perhaps there may be a rationale for having the odd three-hour meeting to deal with reports, although I don't know when that's coming along.
I'd just rather have more regularity in my life, Mr. Chairman, than be governed by the chair.