Public Accounts Committee on March 26th, 2007

[Ron Stewart]

On one Sunday morning the OPP came down the lake in their OPP boat. They knew I was on the lake, but they didn't know where. They made some inquiries and they finally ended up at my dock. They said there was a riot out in Stoney Mountain Institution, which is just north of Winnipeg. There was an understanding with the Corrections people that whenever there was any kind of a riot or commotion, I would go to the institution and see if I could help. So I got in the boat, went over to the land, got in my car, got on a plane, and went to Winnipeg. I was there for a number of days.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I'm going to stop you right there. Wouldn't the very fact that the OPP had to wander around a lake looking for you and come and get you be a sign that maybe this wasn't the appropriate way to be doing that job?

[Ron Stewart]

This was on a Sunday morning. I don't think it would have mattered.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Well, a phone would have made a difference.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you, Mr. Lake.

Madam Brunelle, four minutes.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Mr. Stewart, did your executive director warn you about some of your irregular practices?

[Ron Stewart]

No, he didn't.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Is the executive director here in this room, Mr. Chairman?

[Ron Stewart]

Is he here?

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

No.

[Ron Stewart]

No.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I would also like to know whether the executive director in question is your current executive director.

[Howard Sapers]

The executive director is currently employed by the office in that capacity, and his duties and responsibilities were reviewed, along with all of the management control practices in the office, post the receipt of the 2004 briefing on the first audit from the Auditor General and then specifically with the interim consultant and senior financial officer who I retained after receiving the November 28 report from the Auditor General. So his role was also part of the audit. I think you will find in the audit report that it's very clear that he had no part in approving the issues, nor did he benefit from them, and as a consequence of the reviews that have been done internally and externally, there has also been no reason for disciplinary action.

There have, however, been a number of corrective issues in the office in terms of process and procedure.

[Paule Brunelle, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I will stop you there, Mr. Sapers.

The Auditor General says the following in her report:

The executive director of the Office was aware of certain irregular activities, but took no action to stop these activities.

Further, the Auditor General's report notes that the Office of the Correctional Investigator paid out many amounts of money to employees as bonuses, and that these payments are suspicious, since they were the same amounts but at different pay scales.

Was there cronyism? And how is it that this gentleman is still in the same position?

[Howard Sapers]

I took those conclusions from the auditor very seriously, as you can imagine, and they became the immediate focus of my review. There is absolutely no evidence that there was any form of collusion or that those payments were made in any untoward way. Those payments were made and received in good faith on the issue of the executive director. I think the audit report also says that the executive director, at least on two occasions, made very senior officials of the department aware of concerns he had. One of those discussions took place about mid-career for my predecessor, and the other conversation took place after his retirement.

The role of the executive director was focused by job description. In the office, by work description, the role was focused on managing the investigative function of the office. The administrative function of the office was largely provided through service provision with the department.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Sapers.

Mr. Sweet, for three minutes.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Stewart, you just answered my colleague about the work you did, and you were talking about interviews you had in correctional institutions. Was that your role? In your position, was it not leadership that you were supposed to be involved in, or were you directly involved in investigations on a regular basis?

[Ron Stewart]

When I first took the job there were five people in the office, so, as I mentioned before, I would get my girl to get me a plane ticket. I would phone the institution and tell them I was coming. They would make up a list of inmates who wanted to see me and I would go out and do it.

I had a part-time investigator, and then there was myself and a couple of secretaries in the office. That was it.

Over the years we were allowed to hire more staff. I don't know how often Mr. Sapers goes to the institutions, but I would think it might not be necessary if you have enough investigators to do that function. Basically the role of the Correctional Investigator was to investigate inmate complaints, and you would have to go to the institution to talk to them.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

That's fine.

Mr. Sapers, do you in fact do any investigations right now?

[Howard Sapers]

I visit the institutions on an infrequent basis. I try to be in each region at least once a year, so that would be five or more institutions, and I don't conduct first-hand investigations—

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

That's for oversight and leadership capability, though.

[Howard Sapers]

Absolutely.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Mr. Stewart, have you repaid the government for the one computer you provided for your family?

[Ron Stewart]

No. I offered to pay the finance department of the secretariat and I was told that wouldn't be necessary. I made that offer on my retirement.

[David Sweet, Conservative, Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON]

Okay. Mr. Stewart, my colleague asked you about training and whether you'd received any training, and you've said on two occasions here that you did not receive any training. But he did ask you about you taking initiative to find out about your roles and responsibilities, the ethical performance standards you should be operating by. I believe you had adequate credentials for the position to know that would have been your responsibility.

Which departments did you communicate with in order for you to adequately fulfill the fiduciary duty you had as a leader of that department?