Public Accounts Committee on March 28th, 2007

[S/Sgt Ron Lewis]

Not only was I interviewed by them in November, as we all were, but I had been in contact with them for several years, because without their help this investigation wasn't going to be started. I had to contact them, the Treasury Board minister, and the minister of the day, Anne McLellan, because the investigation took another year to get started after it was stopped the first time, and I had to force a new investigation. So I was in contact with the OAG's department throughout the years.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

This was actually a political intervention with the minister, Anne McLellan, who was the minister of whatever she was in cabinet, including deputy prime minister. You informed her of the problem?

[S/Sgt Ron Lewis]

I informed her, the Minister of the Treasury Board, who was Reg Alcock at the time, and the Auditor General herself with the same memo and a package of information to bring their attention to what was going on. Yes, that was required to get the investigation going a second time.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Mr. Macaulay?

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

Yes, I met with not the Auditor General herself, but her team, and by that time others had met with them. We had a lengthy discussion around the peripheral issues.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Did you tell them the whole story?

[C/Supt Fraser Macaulay]

I told them the whole story, and we agreed that once we got over the pleasantries of everything, we didn't give a full statement because it was out of their scope. That was very clear.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay.

Ms. Revine?

[Denise Revine]

Yes. I went through three interviews. I provided them with an overview of all of the issues, the contracting irregularities, and the nepotism. I had all the details. I wrote them a letter to provide information about what I saw at the time as a cover-up and hiding the truth, and what was wrong.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Okay.

Staff Sergeant Frizzell, you were removed, maybe not forcibly but certainly directly, from the investigation. According to this memo, you were given clear instructions by Inspector Paul Roy of the Ottawa Police Service, and then of course you were told by your senior officers it's time to close your door and get out of there. Who did you talk to before this? This didn't just come right out of the blue. What kinds of conversations did you have, and with whom did you have conversations, about it being time to wrap up this investigation and shut the thing down?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

There were lots of conversations.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

You may start at the top and work down.

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

I think it would be safe to say the majority of the RCMP investigators had serious concerns about the independence of this investigation. I wrote what we call a briefing note; it's just a concise...of what my issues were. I brought them up orally to Paul Roy. He told me to document them, so I did—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Yes, but he was with the Ottawa police department.

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Yes, sorry.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

I'm talking about in the RCMP, starting at the top.

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

I'm headed there.

He asked me to document them. I did. When I presented them--my briefing note documenting my concerns about the investigation--he told me he had been in touch with Mr. Gork. Mr. Gork was in Lyon at the time. He'd been in touch with Mr. Gork, and he had been ordered by Mr. Gork that nothing was to leave our office. I was a little confused at first. I was writing the briefing note for Mr. Roy to take to his chief.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Who did he talk to?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Out of that, I ended up being sent to the deputy commissioner, Gary Loeppky at the time, I think the purpose of which was to tell me to let it die, but that's not the way the conversation went at all. What Mr. Loeppky told me was, “Now they'll have to do something. You guys have found lots; now they'll have to do something.” And unfortunately I had to say to Mr. Loeppky, “Who's 'they'? You're the second most powerful man in the RCMP--who is 'they'?”

So yes, it went right to the--there's no doubt the commissioner was well aware—

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

When you say “no doubt”, did you talk to the commissioner? Have you talked to Commissioner Zaccardelli?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

I have never spoken--I was given the choice of speaking to him or Mr. Loeppky, and I chose Mr. Loeppky.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

How about the current commissioner, Ms. Busson?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

Yes, I have spoken to the current commissioner.

[John Williams, Conservative, Edmonton—St. Albert, AB]

Were you talking to her during this investigation? Did she talk to you before this?

[S/Sgt Mike Frizzell]

No, not at all, just in the past couple of weeks.