Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zaccardelli.
A recording is available from Parliament.
6 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I do have them here, if you'll give me a minute.
6 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
While you're looking for that, I have a question for Mr. Macaulay. The testimony now, if I'm doing the math correctly, is that sometime in mid-2001 you knew about these irregularities. Would that be an accurate statement?
6 p.m.
Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Absolutely not. May 28--the first time I ever had any inkling, was when Jim Ewanovich called me in P.E.I. I was at a CAC meeting, and he accused me of talking to Ron Lewis about his daughter's hiring. I came back and had the discussion with Denise, who was doing the A-base review. Up until then...I knew N2020 existed. Mr. Crupi has said in his opening statement that I was responsible for that budget. I was responsible for the HR budget, but was not allowed to deal with N2020.
6 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
It was Denise Revine, then, who alerted you initially to the irregularities?
6 p.m.
Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
That's correct. And on July 4.... I will just read you the paragraph that's in my July 4 memo, which ex-commissioner Zaccardelli just referred to:
However, given your expressed concern and the obvious seriousness of this matter, I have since accelerated the A-Base review process with respect to the NCPC area. Having now had the opportunity to examine available information, I must say I share your concerns and can attest to the presence of numerous “red flags”. The misuse of funds and the presence of nepotism are serious matters and as such, require immediate investigation and corrective action if deemed appropriate.
We agreed with this audit—to get the audit going—on June 17. By July 4, we had found so much—enough that under any given circumstances, it was time to get to an investigation. As for the second audit, yes, we agreed and asked him about a second audit, and that was about the value for money, because at that end, we were now starting to see that there was no value for money in the outsourcing.
6 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Chairman, I wonder if we could let Mr. Zaccardelli finish his answer.
These gentlemen are disciplined officers who are well trained to take notes, and I would ask that they produce their notebooks, for the time periods in which these discussions happened, forthwith to this committee, and we'll examine those notes to find out exactly what happened in these meetings that have been discussed, particularly between Mr. Macaulay and Mr. Zaccardelli.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Let me ask.
Mr. Macaulay, do you have notes that you didn't tender before?
6:05 p.m.
Chief Superintendent, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Oh, I have my notebook. If you're talking about my personal notebooks, by all means, I'll tender them. I've tendered them five or six times in these investigations.
6:05 p.m.
Staff Sergeant (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
All my documents were tabled initially.
6:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I do not have any notes other than the direction that I gave to the deputy, Gauvin, about starting the audit.
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Chair, Mr. Zaccardelli testified that he had notes that were reminding him about meetings he had with Mr. Lewis. So it sounds as though he's used to taking crib notes to remind him of these meetings, and those are the ones I'd like to have tabled here forthwith.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I'll question Mr. Zaccardelli.
Do you have any notes that he's referring to?
6:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
To my recollection, I have no crib notes. What is in the file is that when I tried to summarize Mr. Lewis's complaint, I actually wrote it down and converted it into a memo to the auditors so that they would get going on it. That is the memo that I have. It's a summary of what I...and I will get it.
6:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Yes.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
6:05 p.m.
Conservative
David Sweet Conservative Ancaster—Dundas—Flamborough—Westdale, ON
Mr. Chair, if he had any officials who took notes on his behalf, then we would have those tabled forthwith as well.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Mr. Etoka, make sure there's an understanding that Mr. Zaccardelli is asked to bring notes from any officials who were at these meetings.
Can you find out and get back to the clerk?
Okay, I think I've clarified that issue. There was a dangling question, though, that I think we left. I forget.
Mr. Zaccardelli.
6:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I think the question was what I requested in the audit, and there are three points. I said:
It has come to my attention that there are a number of rumours circulating at headquarters concerning the following: in Human Resources, there are funds coded to RO2020 that are being possibly used for purposes other than the management of the pension fund. Some of the funds that according to Treasury Board policies can only be used to manage the pension fund are being used to fund other human resource initiatives. Some of these funds may have been used to fund salaries for summer students, etc.
There have been concerns expressed that consultants who have been hired by compensation branch to manage the pension funds are being paid excessive remunerations and that members of some of the consultants' families have been hired by the force. Children of the Chief Human Resource Officer and the Officer in charge of the Compensation Branch may have been inappropriately hired whose salaries may have been paid out of RO2020.
Given the nature of this matter, please have your audit team conduct an audit of these matters as soon as possible so that we can get the facts related to this matter.
Those are my instructions, based upon Mr. Lewis's complaint to me, which I summarized that same day and gave that same day to my chief auditor.
6:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Zaccardelli.
Ms. Sgro, you have five minutes, please.
