Public Accounts Committee on April 16th, 2007

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Ms. Sgro.

In the previous short round, I asked you, Mr. Zaccardelli, whether or not a former chief financial officer of the RCMP advised you that Deputy Commissioner Paul Gauvin had a book with a record of all requests you made to him that were improper and illegal, and that if he were to go down, he would take you with him. You just said that you don't have complete notes, but it appears that someone does have very complete notes.

You answered, when I asked the question, that you don't have a recollection of this. Would it help you if I were to say, to jog your memory, that it was former assistant commissioner and chief financial officer Gordon Clarke who brought this concern to you?

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I 've had a number of discussions with Mr. Clarke over a number of things. He has come to see me on a number of issues. I don't have a specific recollection of that, but if you have some notes or something that would help me—

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

No, we're actually trying to find the notes you don't have, Mr. Zaccardelli, but—

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Wait a minute. Mr. Chair, I don't appreciate the implication here.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Mr. Zaccardelli, you're asking me a question. It's not your role to ask questions here.

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

But I'm entitled to have a fair question asked of me so that I can properly answer it without being interrupted, sir, yet you've done that repeatedly. I've told you I do not have a specific recollection. If there is something that can help me recall that, please allow me to do so.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Chair, to help jog people's memory, perhaps in one of our future meetings we should call Gordon Clarke, the former assistant commissioner and chief financial officer, before this committee. I would think that with serious allegations of this sort, there would be recollections of that meeting.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

We'll deal with that later.

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Mr. Chair, it's totally inappropriate to make that type of comment in front of this committee. I am not being given an opportunity to respond. He's making allegations, and I have not been given an opportunity to respond properly without his interrupting. He has produced nothing for me to see that I can at least look at. He's saying somebody else has made an allegation, and I'm supposed to accept that because he says it is so. That is not the way any fair system works, sir.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

You have two minutes left, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.

Ms. Sgro.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Mr. Zaccardelli, David Brown has been appointed by the government to look into these allegations. Do you know him?

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I have met him. I know him more by reputation than I do by knowing him personally. Obviously, I knew him principally as the head of the Ontario Securities Commission.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Have you had any previous dealings with Mr. Brown?

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

We handled a lot of major criminal investigation files on which we worked with the Ontario Securities Commission, so there would have been that type of association. However, I don't recall our personally sitting down and talking about things. We may have, but my lawyer has already been in contact with him.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

On the management style that we continue to hear criticized, were you involved in the day-to-day operations of running the RCMP?

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

Of course. As the commissioner, I was responsible for the management of the RCMP, both under the act and under the direction of the minister. I knew a lot of things about what was going on. I tried to keep myself very informed about the important things. I did not know everything that was going on.

I was responsible to the minister and ultimately to Parliament, and I discharged that responsibility to the best of my ability. I did not see every document. I did not participate in every discussion that took place. But during my time as commissioner, I tried to inform myself to the best of my ability, and I acted based on that information.

As a matter of fact, when Mr. Lewis came to see me.... He actually didn't report to me, but because I knew he was concerned about certain things, I said he should come to see me. That's why we had a number of meetings. I never closed the door to anyone who had concerns, but once somebody made a concern known to me, I made the decision based on whatever was the best way to proceed. That's a management responsibility. That's the captain's responsibility.

Everybody has the right to raise an issue. How that issue is dealt with is left to the best judgment of the officer who is appropriately designated to respond to that, and I did that every time.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Ms. Sgro.

Mr. Lussier, you have five minutes.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

My question is for Mr. Zaccardelli.

Did you know about the mandate the Ontario Securities Commission gave to Mr. Brown? Were you informed of this mandate?

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I only know it by what was reported in the papers.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Did you ask your lawyer to look into the nature of this review?

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

As soon as we heard that he was appointed, I talked to my lawyer. My lawyer made contact with Mr. Brown's office, and we offered our complete and open collaboration. We are willing to see him as soon as he is available and provide whatever assistance we can so that he can discharge his mandate as given to him by the minister and the government.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

In the Globe and Mail it is described as an informal investigation. What does this mean to you, an informal investigation? Is it dangerous?

[Giuliano Zaccardelli]

I'm sorry, but I don't think I should be commenting on that. I don't know what the exact mandate is, so I will wait until we see the official mandate from Mr. Brown or whoever else contacts us about this matter. As I said, I will cooperate completely, as I've done with this committee.

[Marcel Lussier, Bloc, Brossard—La Prairie, QC]

Mr. Zaccardelli, I would like to return back in time to the month of October 2000. Did you give Mr. Ewanovich a three year mandate? Was Mr. Ewanovich's first contract for three years?