Evidence of meeting #49 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was zaccardelli.
A recording is available from Parliament.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Okay.
Mr Zaccardelli, because of the time limitations—
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, may I have the decency to answer—
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I never ordered a criminal investigation, because I ordered an audit.
After Mr. Lewis agreed that his complaints were not criminal in nature, I found out two days later that he went to A Division and asked for a criminal investigation. In my view, that was an inappropriate action. The complaint had been made, and Mr. Lewis had a right to make the complaint. As the senior manager, it is my decision how to action it, and I actioned it that way.
I never removed or punished anyone in terms of those employees. I did not have anything to do with Mr. Frizzell. It was Inspector Roy from the Ottawa city police. I had nothing to do with Ms. Revine—
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
Borys Wrzesnewskyj Liberal Etobicoke Centre, ON
Thank you.
Mr. Zaccardelli, did a former chief financial officer of the RCMP advise you that Deputy Commissioner Paul Gauvin has a book with a record of all the requests you made to him, which were improper and illegal, and that if he goes down, he will take you with him?
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I have no recollection of that. Mr. Gauvin has been recognized by the committee—
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Will you allow Mr. Zaccardelli to continue, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. Please don't interrupt the witness. You asked him a question, so let him continue.
Mr. Zaccardelli.
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I have no knowledge of that statement, and I would add, Mr. Chair, that Mr. Paul Gauvin has been recognized by his profession as one of the most outstanding chief financial officers in the federal government.
5:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Wrzesnewskyj.
Thank you, Mr. Zaccardelli.
Mr. Williams, you have three minutes.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I'm at a loss trying to understand what's going on here, because we have serious allegations on the record by the chief superintendent, Mr. Lewis, and others, which are refuted by Mr. Zaccardelli.
Mr. Zaccardelli, you just mentioned a minute ago that there was no police investigation back in 2003. Yet the Auditor General specifically mentions that the RCMP initiated a criminal investigation on June 23, 2003, which you stopped two days later.
Why do you say there was no criminal investigation?
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Because there wasn't. The complaint was made, Mr. Williams—
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
No, the RCMP initiated a criminal investigation on June 23, 2003. That's in paragraph 9.11 of the AG's report.
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
I'm going to tell you what I did and why, Mr. Williams.
When the information came to me, I analyzed the information, and based on that information, I believed the appropriate action to take from an organizational perspective was to do an audit. When I learned two days later that Mr. Lewis had tried to initiate a criminal investigation, I considered that to be an inappropriate action because I had already passed judgment on the facts that were presented to me. And the facts, as they were presented to me, did not amount to a criminal investigation, which has subsequently been proved by the fact that our own internal audit didn't uncover any criminal investigation and the Attorney General did not pursue criminal charges. Mr. Macaulay and Ms. Revine actually agreed, in correspondence sent to me July 4, 2003, that an audit should be done, not a criminal investigation.
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
I'm still at a loss to find out why the force is arguing amongst themselves between statements on the record about cover-up at the top and no real response as to why we would have a cover-up.
Ms. George, I understand, is no longer in her position. She left the very day we had our last meeting. It appears that her testimony has been refuted by e-mails tabled in this place.
Why would senior members of the force go to the extent of denying all this is going on and trying to say this isn't a big deal? Because it is a big deal.
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Mr. Williams, you have a public internal audit, an internal audit that is shared with the Treasury Board and the--
5:05 p.m.
Conservative
5:05 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
Well, this is what I'm talking about. If this is a cover-up, I think it's a pretty poor cover-up. We have a public audit by the RCMP that is shared by Treasury Board and the Auditor General. We have a very public investigation that is going on by the Ottawa city police. We have the Crown that says there's no reason to charge. I am communicating regularly with my members, giving them an update on what's going on. I am meeting with NEC, the national executive committee of the divisional reps. This is in the public domain.
If this is a cover-up, Mr. Williams, I leave it to you.
April 16th, 2007 / 5:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
The only thing that I can say, Mr. Chairman, is that Barbara George denied all knowledge of the investigation and Mr. Frizzell and whatever else was going on, and that was completely refuted by e-mails tabled by Mr. Wrzesnewskyj. Now she's no longer in her position. That's what I'm talking about as a cover-up.
I'm not making any particular accusation at you, Mr. Zaccardelli, but there are a number of issues here where they say you were informed, and you acknowledge that you were fully informed.
5:10 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
And I acted upon the information.
5:10 p.m.
Conservative
John Williams Conservative Edmonton—St. Albert, AB
You acted upon it, but I'm at a loss to find out what we're actually trying to.... I think the cover-up is worse than the crime, as it always is, if there is a cover-up, and there appears to be a cover-up, and I can't understand the motivation for the cover-up.
Anyway, you mentioned how you kept the minister informed. Do you actually recall talking to the minister, or was it just a departmental briefing from the RCMP to her department?
5:10 p.m.
Former Commissioner, Royal Canadian Mounted Police, As an Individual
It would be briefing notes. I do not specifically recall speaking to Minister McLellan. I do recall some discussions with Minister Day, but more particularly about the need to look at the legislation on the one-year limitation. I would briefly tell him, “Look, there are serious allegations. We've taken them seriously--we've done audits and criminal investigations and the Auditor General has come in--but there is this issue about the one-year limitation.” It was in that sense that I was briefing the minister.
5:10 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Thank you very much, Mr. Williams.
Thank you, Mr. Zaccardelli.
We have two minutes left. I'm going to go to Monsieur Laforest for two minutes, and then I'm going to have to move to the three motions we have to deal with as a committee.
Monsieur Laforest.
5:10 p.m.
Bloc
Jean-Yves Laforest Bloc Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Zaccardelli, you told us earlier...