Evidence of meeting #5 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accounting.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
As my colleague Mr. Wiersema has already said, he performed the Comptroller General's duties on an acting basis from December 12, 2003 until March 2004. He had previously been Deputy Comptroller General.
Bloc
Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC
So it was Mr. Wiersema who made the decision. Is that correct?
Imagine a car is headed toward you and you have to decide which of you will have to bear the impact of the collusion. Did one of you make that decision or not?
Former Comptroller General of Canada, As an Individual
Mr. Chairman, at the time the decision was made not to seek supplementary estimates, which would have been February of 2004, I was the acting Comptroller General. I disagreed with that decision. At the time the Public Accounts of Canada were finalized, for March 31, 2004, my colleague, Mr. St-Jean, was the Comptroller General.
Bloc
Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC
So you made the decision not to do that, but someone reversed your decision. It seems to me I'm asking a simple question.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
You have to understand that there were two events. First, the decision had to be made, in February, whether to request supplementary estimates. That was the first decision, and I believe it was the Deputy Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness who made the recommendation not to request supplementary estimates.
Subsequently, there was a second decision, and it concerned the accounting in the government's financial statements. Mr. St-Jean was the Comptroller General at that time.
Bloc
Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC
Thank you. I got an answer.
While we're sitting here, another committee is sitting to examine Bill C-2, the accountability bill. If that bill were enacted, would all these problems disappear as a result or would they still exist?
We spend 29 hours a week trying to reinvent the wheel so that government is more accountable. If Bill C-2 had been enacted at that time, would...
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
As I mentioned in the response to the Auditor General's report, the points have been noted. There is no doubt that improvements needed to be made. A four-point plan was put in place to prevent any repetition of similar situations.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
The fact that Bill C-2 is not...
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
In terms of accountability, as Comptroller General and the person accountable to Parliament, I must put controls in place so this kind of situation does not reoccur.
Bloc
Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC
Very well.
I know Ms. Cartwright will be delighted to hear that.
Madame Fraser, in paragraph 32, on page 13 of your report, you state:
At the same time, Secretariat accounting officials were asked to look for an accounting treatment that would avoid having to record all of the CFIS II costs incurred in 2003-04 and therefore avoid, if possible, the need to submit Supplementary Estimates.
Could you or Mr. St-Jean tell me who asked them to do so?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
We'd have to find...
Senior Principal, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
Mr. Chairman, the officials would have been in both the Comptroller General's branch and the program branch.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
And who asked them?
Bloc
Benoît Sauvageau Bloc Repentigny, QC
I would say we're probably referring to a comment or an e-mail that makes reference to Bill C-2 accounting solutions. Can we find, let's say, an accounting solution to this problem?
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
No, we refer to a memo, an e-mail from the Secretary of the Treasury Board at the time, the secretary himself.
Liberal
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Wiersema, paragraph 35 of the report mentions a meeting of high-level officials in mid-February. You testified earlier that there were a lot of political considerations that were talked about to arrive at an ultimate decision. In your opening statement you raised the issue that you resigned as deputy acting Comptroller General. Did you resign in objection to the decision that was ultimately made at that meeting? Is that why you resigned? May I ask that question?
Former Comptroller General of Canada, As an Individual
Decisions to resign positions, Mr. Chairman, are based on many considerations, but I should say that this was a major factor in my decision to resign, yes.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Thank you, Mr. Wiersema.
Were there any other dissenting voices at that meeting? May I ask who you recall had dissented on the ultimate decision of deferring to a legal opinion as opposed to the decision to go for supplementary estimates?
Former Comptroller General of Canada, As an Individual
I don't think I can answer that question, because I don't recall any explicit polling of participants in the meeting so as to know what their positions were. There was a discussion about the legal opinion, there was a discussion about the accounting, and there was a discussion about the political implications. The meeting terminated and decisions were taken from there.
Conservative
Jeff Watson Conservative Essex, ON
Who recorded the unrecorded liability? Who's responsible for recording the unrecorded liability?
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
That would be recorded in the books, in the DPRs of the centre, and then it would be booked in the central provisions in the public accounts.
