Do you want to add something, Mr. Wiersema?
Evidence of meeting #5 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accounting.
Evidence of meeting #5 for Public Accounts in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accounting.
1:20 p.m.
Former Comptroller General of Canada, As an Individual
I will just respond to Mr. Baker, Mr. Chairman.
In my view, my position was very clear in that meeting. I maintained that view throughout the meeting. I didn't feel it was necessary at that meeting to repeat myself. My view was known. My assessment was that everybody in the room knew what the right thing to do was, that it wasn't necessary for me to repeat myself, so I did what I thought was logical and reported to my boss. I communicated my discomfort.
1:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
For the record, who was at the meeting? You may have answered this before, but I want to make it absolutely clear.
1:20 p.m.
Former Comptroller General of Canada, As an Individual
I'll speak from my recollection. It has already been mentioned that Madam Bloodworth convened the meeting. I was in attendance. Madam Cartwright was in attendance. Mr. Baker and Mr. Brunet were in attendance. There may have been some officials from PWGSC in attendance as well, but I'm not clear on their names. Perhaps Mr. Baker can fill in the gaps.
1:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Ms. Cartwright, you're here. I'm going to ask you what your position is on this whole issue.
May 30th, 2006 / 1:20 p.m.
Susan Cartwright Assistant Secretary, Accountability in Government, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
My recollection of the meeting that took place was that Mr. Wiersema did not raise his concerns at the meeting, and certainly from my point of view, I didn't believe we were doing anything wrong in taking the action we took, which was based on a legal opinion in terms of how to treat the appropriation under the Financial Administration Act.
1:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
The plot thickens.
I'm not going to keep going back and forth.
I want to pursue one other issue that disturbs me here—I'll bring it up again, and it has been brought up before—that involves a statement in your submission, Mr. St-Jean, and that is:
A senior official of my office and myself met with senior officials from the Office of the Auditor General, as part of its public accounts 2004 audit in early August 2004, to discuss the accounting treatment from both an appropriations (and I underline that) and financial statement perspective. A copy of the legal opinion and related analysis was provided to the OAG. We were subsequently verbally advised later in August by the Public Accounts audit team of the OAG that it had no issues with the matter.
I'm a little taken back that this statement is contradicted almost totally by the Office of the Auditor General.
My first question is to you, Madam Auditor. You've complained about minutes not being taken of other meetings. This was a very important meeting. Certainly if we had minutes of that meeting, they would answer a lot of the questions we're having here today. Are there any accurate or correct minutes from this meeting?
1:25 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I don't believe there are any actual minutes of that meeting. As I mentioned, there is this e-mail from Mr. Vandenhoven outlining his review of the material. It's a four-line memo.
1:25 p.m.
Auditor General, Office of the Auditor General of Canada
I think if we had been apprised of the full nature of this transaction and the concerns about charging it to appropriations, a substantive letter would have gone back. It wouldn't have simply been a note and a verbal conversation, saying that we think a $22 million accrual is okay. It's a very different kind of analysis that would have been done.
1:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Lastly, Mr. St-Jean, the senior official, you've probably answered this before, but who was that person?
1:25 p.m.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
From my office?
1:25 p.m.
Comptroller General of Canada, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
My colleague here, Bill Matthews.
1:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
I think in fairness to what is going on, I'd like to bring him to the table and ask him a question, if you don't mind.
I'll ask you, sir, to identify yourself and state your position.
1:25 p.m.
Senior Director, Government Accounting Policy, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
Bill Matthews, senior director, government accounting policy, Office of the Comptroller General.
1:25 p.m.
Liberal
1:25 p.m.
Senior Director, Government Accounting Policy, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
Yes, I have.
1:25 p.m.
Senior Director, Government Accounting Policy, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
We had a meeting with Mr. Vandenhoven and one other member of the Office of the Auditor General, and we discussed two issues. Our understanding at that time was that it was the legal opinion on whether an item should be charged to an appropriation. I cannot speak to what sort of audit work the OAG did with that, but my understanding then was that there were no issues.
1:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Who was the other person from the Auditor General's office who was there?
1:25 p.m.
Senior Director, Government Accounting Policy, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
If my recollection is correct, it was Mr. Doug Timmins.
1:25 p.m.
Senior Director, Government Accounting Policy, Treasury Board of Canada Secretariat
I would guess half an hour or so. It was not a long meeting.
1:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Shawn Murphy
Would it be normal to keep minutes or some kind of recording of the decisions taken at this meeting?