Public Accounts Committee on April 30th, 2007

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Did you respond to Mr. Gord Hadley when he told you about these allegations of cheating? What did you do in your capacity as human resources director? This seems to be a fairly serious situation. You did nothing. Today you are saying that you do not agree with the allegations. I am asking you what you did when you received this e-mail in September of 2004.

[D/Commr Barbara George]

If I could recall, I would have sent that over to the official languages branch and possibly to the central region to look at those allegations. They should have been looked into.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Did you receive an answer from the Official Languages Commissioner?

[D/Commr Barbara George]

If I were back in my office, I possibly could get a response to that.

[Jean-Yves Laforest, Bloc, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would like you to provide us with an answer to that question, please.

My second question is for Ms. Burton. On April 18^th last, Ms. George stated, and I quote:

In June 2005, Ms. Rosalie Burton told me that some members of her staff were being aggressively interrogated by Sergeant Frizzell. In fact, it was my understanding that at least two staff members were so upset after their interviews with Sergeant Frizzell that they had to be sent home.

Can you tell us who these two people were who were sent home after having been interrogated by Sergeant Frizzell?

[Rosalie Burton]

Yes, Mr. Chair, there are two people who come to mind right away. The first one was Liette Bellemare, who was the acting director of the National Compensation Policy Centre. She's the one who went home distraught, in tears, with employees running out of the building after her.

I had been at a meeting in another building, and they came running up to me when I pulled into the parking lot. I agreed to call her at home. I called her that evening to make sure that she was okay. They were concerned that she wasn't in any condition to drive. That was around April, maybe mid-April.

The second name was Jeff Hutchefon. Before that, he had turned to me and said, “This is not an interview, Rosalie, it's an interrogation.” So he would have been the second one.

But I want to be very clear that I did not know at any point which of my employees were being interviewed and by which investigators. I didn't have a schedule. I don't know who did the interviewing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Shawn Murphy]

Thank you very much, Mr. Laforest.

Thank you, Mrs. Burton.

Mr. Poilievre, you have eight minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Rogerson, you indicated that Mr. Gauvin was your boss, and that prior to his position with the RCMP, his role was in the political office of then Solicitor General Andy Scott. Is that correct?

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

I'm not sure if it was just prior, but it was recent.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Okay. You spoke about his response to you on your complaints about members of his office accepting gifts, etc. You said something to the effect that this participation was permissible, and he learned that in Mr. Scott's office. Is that correct?

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

Yes. He informed me that while he worked as an advisor to Mr. Scott, he called the Treasury Board ethics advisor. He said that there was nothing wrong with what we were doing, with respect to its perception.

I should go further. He also pointed out that since the contract to provide those services with the company, offering these gifts in kind, was signed by Treasury Board, there was also no conflict of interest.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

The contract was signed by Treasury Board.

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

To my knowledge, for our new financial systems, yes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

With which firm?

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

At that time, it would have been SAP.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

SAP, and that's an acronym for—?

[A/Commr Bruce Rogerson]

That's what they call themselves, SAP. They're a German firm and provide the financial systems for a number of agencies.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

All right. Thank you for that.

Mr. Roy, I have an exchange between you and Mr. Fitzpatrick before this committee on April 18. It goes as follows: “Did Ms. Burton ever contact you during the investigation and suggest that Sergeant Frizzell was being a bit too aggressive and abusive in his investigation?” Mr. Roy, you responded: “Yes, she did”.

Ms. Burton, why did you think it was appropriate to comment on Mr. Frizzell's behaviour in the investigation to the head of that investigation? Why did you think it was your role to do that?

[Rosalie Burton]

As I outlined in my opening statement, my contacts with Mr. Frizzell—When I received the voice mail and then asked advice on what I should do with it, Inspector Roy offered—well, I read it—that he probably wasn't speaking on behalf of the investigation, and this was probably some personal fallout. He suggested that I do not take the meeting that was requested.

He went on to say that he had been having problems with that guy. I said “The stress of this investigation is tearing apart the policy centre. I can't keep the employees together any longer; there are people running off-site.”

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Did you not think it inappropriate for someone in your position to intervene with the head investigator of a police investigation into the practices of an organization over which at that point you had control?

[Rosalie Burton]

Actually, Mr. Chair, I thought it most appropriate that I call the lead authority, because the voice mail indicated that there was serious ongoing corruption in senior management in the RCMP. If I cannot go up, where do I go?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

No, wait a second. Excuse me; you're changing the subject. Your intervention to Mr. Roy was not about corruption. According to his testimony here, your intervention was about abusive and aggressive behaviour, and—

[Rosalie Burton]

Mr. Chair, I seek to clarify that.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

—that's what Mr. Roy testified before this committee. So I don't want to hear any new tangents.

You contacted Mr. Roy about the alleged behaviour of Mr. Frizzell. I want to know why someone in your position, whose department was being investigated, would think it appropriate to contact the head investigator about one of the people on that investigative team, who suspiciously was removed soon after.

[Rosalie Burton]

I would like to go back. I contacted Inspector Roy because of the voice mail; I relayed the voice mail to Inspector Roy, and I asked his advice. First it was about the voice mail alleging that there was ongoing corruption in the RCMP, not about compromising an investigation.

Where do I take a voice mail like that or an allegation? Superiors—