Public Accounts Committee on June 11th, 2007

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Saying I didn't care is not exactly an analysis of the situation. We had this project to do. We had a lot of projects in the RCMP. He was particularly doing this project under the auspices of HR.

There were four levels of supervision between Mr. Crupi and Mr. Ewanovich. On top of that, we were basically relying on Public Works to do their job. They were here and fully explained that the job was not done.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

With all due respect, Commissioner Gauvin, you weren't doing your job either. Why would you have to rely on them to do their job when you were the chief financial officer of corporate management and comptrollership?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

It was because we stopped them on the contracting side. We expected Public Works would do their due diligence, as they usually do. In this case, something broke down. There was collusion between two departments. When there is collusion, it is very difficult to police.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Going back to the issue of the criminal investigation, how many conversations did you have with Commissioner Zaccardelli on the whole issue of what was going on within the pension concerns?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

When there is a criminal investigation, we have no discussions whatsoever. We're told not to participate and we're told just to wait for the results of the investigation. We were interviewed. In this investigation, over 200 people were interviewed. And then you wait for the report. So we can't discuss it.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

I'm going to go back, then, to Mr. Picard. You indicated earlier that Mr. Gauvin had two opportunities to set the record straight and didn't on either occasion—

[Supt Christian Picard]

Yes.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

—do things he could have done. Would you elaborate a bit more on that, please?

[Supt Christian Picard]

Well, at this point, I would suggest the report was done five years ago, and I would like to look at the report to be more precise on this issue, because it was an issue of.... He was made aware of the incident. They didn't act on it and didn't do what was supposed to be done. This created the OPP investigation.

And he didn't want to take any responsibility for it. The question was about that, the fact that when he was aware, he didn't do anything about it—and why. He denied this issue, basically, saying he did not delay it.

But I would have to review the report.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

Okay, that's fine, sir.

I will go back to Mr. Gauvin. There are time limits, and the reason it ended up with no criminal investigation seems to be that the time period had lapsed.

Were you aware of the fact that there was a time limit to that investigation going on? And why didn't you take some further action?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

This is a different issue. This is the OPP investigation.

When I went to work for the RCMP, before I got there—this had happened before I got there—there was an allegation that an individual had taken a trip with an automotive company. I asked him twice and he told me he hadn't.

Now, Mr. Picard has maintained all the time that I should have taken action. I really didn't know what action to take; I had just joined the RCMP. Nobody sat down with me and said, this is how the thing works. I asked the individual twice, and he told me no.

So there was a criminal investigation. During that investigation, which took a long time, they found that the individual had indeed taken the trip. After that, it was given to a deputy commissioner as the appropriate officer as to what would happen with discipline. The appropriate officer was retiring at the time, and Mr. Picard and some other colleagues were deciding what to do with the discipline. And they did, and we took our medicine, and that was it. There were 19 people who were actually disciplined with what is called informal discipline.

But Mr. Picard has maintained all the time, and he is still doing it today, that I should have taken action on that individual, because I should have known. But I didn't know. I asked that individual twice, and he told me he hadn't taken any trip. In fact, he showed me a memo, signed by Commissioner Murray, that basically said that the matter had been investigated and was complete.

[Judy Sgro, Liberal, York West, ON]

And you didn't—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Gauvin, with the prerogative of the chair, can I just pick up on a point that Mr. Williams raised.

On this whole outsourcing thing, from day one, it would seem to me that everyone on the committee would be of the view that the costs of this got out of hand, whether insurance or pension costs, and escalated quite dramatically all the way through Morneau Sobeco and Great-West Life, and then we got into contracts with the other department.

The question I'd like to ask you is that as the chief financial officer responsible for the control of the finances of the RCMP, why in the world wouldn't you have become wired into this problem of escalating costs and being over budget, and so on? Wouldn't you be the natural person to whom these things would come?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Well, I was one person, but as I explained before—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

But you're the chief financial officer.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Yes, and I've heard you say that many times. I've said before this committee that this was a project being done under HR. It wasn't my project. Second, we watched this and knew that the costs were going up, but they were all approved by Treasury Board Secretariat.

And there were two things we were trying to do at the same time. One of them was to implement Bill C-78, the new pension bill, and we had to produce financial statements, and the information had to be correct. So there was a lot of correction of information. At the same time, we wanted to do the outsourcing.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

I still have to ask you one question. If the money is being spent, and there are problems in HR with spending the money, and it's getting out of control, and you're the chief financial officer of the RCMP, do you not have some responsibility to find out what's going on in that department and to bring about some accountability?

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

We asked many questions. If you look at the other two pension plans, their costs were also going up. In fact, the public service pension plan went up 100% at the same time, and the DND pension plan went up 143%. So a lot of that was really due to implementing Bill C-78, as opposed to outsourcing.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Right, okay. Thank you very much.

Mr. Lake, you're up for five minutes.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. It's a complex web.

Mr. Lavoie, you came highly recommended by Mr. Gauvin into your position, I believe, in the privacy office. Right?

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

Yes.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

How did you know him beforehand?

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

I was director of financial policy in corporate management and comptrollership, and I was there for a year.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

So you knew him for one year.?

[Supt Pierre Lavoie]

I knew him, but I was not reporting to him. I worked for somebody else.