Public Accounts Committee on June 11th, 2007

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

We're going to call our meeting to order.

Before we get into our official business today, perhaps we can deal with the minutes of the steering committee.

You haven't seen it yet? You want to wait for the end? Okay. We can do that. There's no fine print or anything in there, and we're all in agreement with it, but okay.

Yes, Mr. Poilievre.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Mr. Chair, I have some business emanating from last week's meeting during our interviewing of Mr. Pelletier. I'm wondering if we should pursue that business now or leave it for the end of the meeting.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Maybe we could handle it at the end of the day's business as well.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Nepean—Carleton, ON]

Sure. Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(g), we are pursuing our hearings on the Report of the Auditor General of Canada, chapter 9, “Pension and Insurance Administration—Royal Canadian Mounted Police”, of November 2006. Basically the thrust of what we're looking at today involves the issues surrounding access to information questions. I think the witnesses are people who are all privy to that file.

I welcome all the witnesses here today. Some of you have been here before. Normally we allow witnesses to make statements to start the proceedings....

Oh, we have to swear you in first. We'll let the clerk do that.

And if anyone has an opening statement to make, maybe you could just put up your hand so that I'm aware of who you are.

[Michel Joyal, As an Individual]

My name is Michel Joyal.

I do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Keith Estabrooks, As an Individual]

I, Keith Estabrooks, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Inspector Ian Cowan, Inspector, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Ian Cowan, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Louis Alberti, Legal Services, Department of Justice, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Louis Alberti, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin, Deputy Commissioner, Corporate Management and Comptrollership, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Paul Gauvin, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Supt Christian Picard, Superintendent, former Officer in charge of the Access to information and Privacy, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Christian Picard, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Supt Pierre Lavoie, Superintendent (Retired), Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Pierre Lavoie, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[Inspector Paul McConnell, Inspector, Royal Canadian Mounted Police]

I, Paul McConnell, do swear that the evidence I shall give on this examination shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Superintendent Picard, go ahead with your opening statement. We generally try to limit the statements to no more than five minutes.

[Supt Christian Picard]

My name is Christian Picard. I have been a member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police since 1972. I have nearly 34 years of service. From April 2000 to May 2005, I was the RCMP access to information coordinator. From May 2005 to May 2006, I was the Chief of Staff in the Ivory Coast. I represented Canada and the RCMP in the Ivory Coast. From August 2006 to October 2006, I replaced the officer in charge for the central region. Since October 2006, I have been on detachment to the Information Commissioner.

I wish to point out that the position of access to information coordinator is one of the most difficult positions to have, whether it is with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police, with the Department of National Defence, or with the Department of Foreign Affairs. We must often deal with very sensitive issues. Often, management does not necessarily understand the legislation, or does not want to understand it. Managers often want information to be exempted. Unfortunately, in cases involving embarrassing information, no provision in the Access to Information Act makes an exception for that.

When I joined the RCMP, as with any member of the RCMP, I swore to uphold the law and to respect it. I ask myself this question every day: if the RCMP does not respect the Access to Information Act, who will? For five years, I made sure I respected the spirit of the act. Of course, this meant that I fought epic battles with senior managers. That was not always easy within a paramilitary organization like the RCMP. You try to protect the organization against itself, but that is often perceived as being disloyal to the organization.

When I ultimately signed the letter and sent it to the applicants, I was ready to defend the arguments it contained and the exemptions which had been applied up to the Supreme Court. At the time, I represented the commissioner.

I am ready to answer your questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Thank you, Mr. Picard.

Deputy Commissioner Gauvin.

[D/Commr Paul Gauvin]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm not going to take much time. I wanted to correct—or not correct, but I wanted to give my impression with regard to the meeting of June 4, 2007.

You, Mr. Chairman, asked Mr. Crupi a question regarding contracts. His testimony was that his officers—and he was referring to me—signed every procurement contract.

You will recall that I told you we removed Mr. Crupi's signing authorities as a result of some of the things he wanted to do. As a result of that, he went to Public Works. Once he took that step, Public Works signed the contracts, not the RCMP. So when he actually went to Public Works, Public Works was signing the contracts.

Therefore, the answer that Mr. Crupi gave is misleading and incorrect. These contracts are Public Works contracts, and therefore were not signed by my officers.

That's it, sir.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Michel Joyal.

[Michel Joyal]

Mr. Chairman, allow me to introduce myself. My name is Michel Joyal. I am a retired member of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police. I retired last March. I was the deputy officer responsible for programs and policy with the Access to Information Branch. When Superintendent Picard, as the coordinator, was away, I normally took on his roles and responsibilities.

I am ready to answer your questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Brian Fitzpatrick]

Georges, who's first on the list here?

Okay, go at it, Borys.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Monsieur Joyal, a couple of years ago, while Mr. Picard was away on a training course, you were in charge of the ATIP branch. There was an ATIP request, from February 4, 2004, for former Commissioner Zaccardelli's expense claims.

Did Mr. Gauvin intervene and call you in to a meeting regarding this matter?

[Michel Joyal]

On the request in question—February 17, 2004, is the postdate on the document—it had to do with the expense accounts for Commissioner Zaccardelli for 2001, 2002, and 2003, including a detailed breakdown and the receipts therein.

At the request of Mr. Gauvin's office, yes, I attended the commissioner's boardroom, 1200 Vanier Parkway, to discuss the disclosure. And basically—it was on May 2, 2005—Superintendent Picard had already told me that basically everything was fine, and I didn't need to review. The letter was signed by him. It was all set to be disclosed. Basically we were just giving a couple of days to the minister's office so that they could go through it. It was a document of about a thousand pages.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Mr. Gauvin had made the request to meet. You met in the commissioner's boardroom. Was anyone else present?

[Michel Joyal]

Yes. There were, I believe, three other individuals. Sitting on my right was Inspector Tim Cogan. There were also two other individuals. The names are on the e-mail. I could not recall their names today without referring to the e-mail. My main focus was on Mr. Gauvin.

[Borys Wrzesnewskyj, Liberal, Etobicoke Centre, ON]

Okay.

Did Mr. Gauvin request that a general synopsis be sent out, as opposed to the specific claims?